Well I hope the team took action today, but the new King Tora arrived today.
As a result I think that all lapped cars should be moved behind lead lap
cars inside of 10 laps to go just like NASCAR. Thats one rule they right,
and if I were Dario I would have been headed to a trailer very quickly after
the race. I hope Honda gives him a huge talking to because they are about
the only ones I bet he would listen to if anyone.
–
Mark
I disagree, a driver that dominates a race should not have his lead taken
away by a late yellow flag. It is Franchitti’s responsibility to get around
Takagi. He must be on his toes at the restart.
I don’t want any NASCRAP rules finding their way into this series. When a
driver gets a legitimate (big) lead in NASCRAP they always try to level
(tighten) the playing field. Why even go for the lead early on then?
"Mark Blackwell" <a…@cobweb.net> wrote in message
news:D8E9A91BD542996F.755DF4873A3641EF.51A5FA10152DF80D@lp.airnews.net…
- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -
> Well I hope the team took action today, but the new King Tora arrived
today.
> As a result I think that all lapped cars should be moved behind lead lap
> cars inside of 10 laps to go just like NASCAR. Thats one rule they right,
> and if I were Dario I would have been headed to a trailer very quickly
after
> the race. I hope Honda gives him a huge talking to because they are about
> the only ones I bet he would listen to if anyone.
> —
> Mark
Well…I can see both points of view on the subject of getting around
lapped cars on a post-yellow restart but…
-As a long time race viewer, I’d say the vast majority of drivers in
Takagi’s shoes WOULD have moved out of the way. Deal with him first
because he does have a history of this type of driving. Or maybe I
missed something and he had his own battle going on? How close was the
next lapped contender? (Mind you I’m not fishing for excuses here!)
-Did the flaggers show enough enthusiasm in telling him to move out of
the way? (At that point in the race)…Was Dario really faster on those
last laps? And why not show him a black flag, they had the time on his
second time by the start-finish line..that would have given Dario the
last lap to have a go.
-A little earlier in the race, Da Matta conveniently "ignored" the pace
car signal (as I saw it…and I don’t know if the pace car itself did
not miss him) and the whole field drove around another time. Result: Da
Matta had one least lap to defend his lead but more importantly, his
tires were not as hot since he was just out of the pits while Dario was
at full speed. On the other hand he probably lost the time anyway once
the parading began.
-More to the point, why not have a panel on the back of the pace car
where the number of the car that has to slot in behind can be displayed:
simple, big numbers, lit display on a black background, second guy in
the pace car pushes a button and the trick is done…No excuses
possible…SPEED had us in the race direction booth as the guy
responsible was saying "Tell him to pick up the 6…" and somehow they
all went around once again…
Considering the technical level of the equipment involved it should be a
no-brainer.
MF
I do not see any way around late race yellows unless you adopt the F1 policy
of sending course workers on the track while the cars are still at full
speed. That I hope they do not do. Its one thing to get a car that is a
relatively safe area with local yellow and another to send workers a great
distance away from a protected area. With the track at full speed another
incident from the same patch of oil could be a very sad situation.
The release that F1 corner workers sign might have very little value in the
US. Granted this race is in Mexico, but I would be interested in hearing
what the US attorney’s on the group thought. My understanding is that you
can release negligence but not gross negligence. The difference is what is
determined after the fact, but I do not think that it would be too much of a
stretch to see sending people on the track with cars at speed as gross
negligence but I could be wrong. F1 would just drop the country in which
such an attempt was made from the series and move it somewhere more F1
friendly.
If you do not like NASCAR thats fine and there is a lot I do not agree with
they do. Yet with less than 10 laps or so to go a laped car blocking what
could have been some great racing was inexcusable. Could Dario have gotten
by? We will never know. I personally do not think so but it would have
been a great show to see him try.
Why lead? Lots of advantages to being out front even if the amount of the
lead gets taken away. Clean air, less chance of getting mixed up in
someone elses problem and the ability to dictate the race pace are all valid
reasons to want to lead. One race you might gain an advantage when a yellow
comes out, and the next you might lose an advantage, but over the course of
a full season it usually averages out.
Earlier in the race I would agree that it should be Dario’s responsiblity to
pass the lapper. Yet what did Tora have to gain by holding him up?
Nothing. But both he and the leader were both powered by Toyota hmm Toyota
had something to gain but not Tora. I hate team tactics in racing no matter
what series it is. Share info, great, but once on the track go racing and
your teammate is a another racer. According to Cart’s website Tora was 2
laps down at the finish and the only car on his lap. If the whole field had
passed him he would have finished in exactly the same spot he did.
—
Mark
"JT Shell" <jtshel…@charter.net> wrote in message
news:u8omroae3hfqda@corp.supernews.com…
- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -
> I disagree, a driver that dominates a race should not have his lead taken
> away by a late yellow flag. It is Franchitti’s responsibility to get
around
> Takagi. He must be on his toes at the restart.
> I don’t want any NASCRAP rules finding their way into this series. When a
> driver gets a legitimate (big) lead in NASCRAP they always try to level
> (tighten) the playing field. Why even go for the lead early on then?
> "Mark Blackwell" <a…@cobweb.net> wrote in message
> news:D8E9A91BD542996F.755DF4873A3641EF.51A5FA10152DF80D@lp.airnews.net…
> > Well I hope the team took action today, but the new King Tora arrived
> today.
> > As a result I think that all lapped cars should be moved behind lead lap
> > cars inside of 10 laps to go just like NASCAR. Thats one rule they
right,
> > and if I were Dario I would have been headed to a trailer very quickly
> after
> > the race. I hope Honda gives him a huge talking to because they are
about
> > the only ones I bet he would listen to if anyone.
> > —
> > Mark
I’m going to have to go watch the tape to confirm this, but I thought I
heard Franchitti say that Takagi got between them during the yellow.
Otherwise, I agree with you.
"JT Shell" <jtshel…@charter.net> wrote in message
news:u8omroae3hfqda@corp.supernews.com…
- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -
> I disagree, a driver that dominates a race should not have his lead taken
> away by a late yellow flag. It is Franchitti’s responsibility to get
around
> Takagi. He must be on his toes at the restart.
From Speedvision.com
"The cash [sic] brought out the caution flag and brought Franchitti and
Fittipaldi right on the back of the leader, but the lapped car of Takagi
took the restart in between the Newman-Haas machine of da Matta and the
second-placed Franchitti Honda/Reynard."
"JT Shell" <jtshel…@charter.net> wrote in message
news:u8omroae3hfqda@corp.supernews.com…
- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -
> I disagree, a driver that dominates a race should not have his lead taken
> away by a late yellow flag. It is Franchitti’s responsibility to get
around
> Takagi. He must be on his toes at the restart.
> I don’t want any NASCRAP rules finding their way into this series. When a
> driver gets a legitimate (big) lead in NASCRAP they always try to level
> (tighten) the playing field. Why even go for the lead early on then?
> "Mark Blackwell" <a…@cobweb.net> wrote in message
> news:D8E9A91BD542996F.755DF4873A3641EF.51A5FA10152DF80D@lp.airnews.net…
> > Well I hope the team took action today, but the new King Tora arrived
> today.
> > As a result I think that all lapped cars should be moved behind lead lap
> > cars inside of 10 laps to go just like NASCAR. Thats one rule they
right,
> > and if I were Dario I would have been headed to a trailer very quickly
> after
> > the race. I hope Honda gives him a huge talking to because they are
about
> > the only ones I bet he would listen to if anyone.
> > —
> > Mark
I thought about Takagi getting in the way too, but I think it would’nt have
mattered. The track was too slippery for Dario to make a pass on Takagi so I
don’t think he could have made a pass around DaMatta anyway..Dont they have
street sweepers in Mexico?
Mark Blackwell <a…@cobweb.net> wrote in message
news:D8E9A91BD542996F.755DF4873A3641EF.51A5FA10152DF80D@lp.airnews.net…
> Well I hope the team took action today, but the new King Tora arrived
today.
> As a result I think that all lapped cars should be moved behind lead lap
> cars inside of 10 laps to go just like NASCAR. Thats one rule they
right,
> and if I were Dario I would have been headed to a trailer very quickly
after
> the race. I hope Honda gives him a huge talking to because they are
about
> the only ones I bet he would listen to if anyone.
No, I hate that rule in NASCAR. It gives guys a free pass around cars that
the drivers they have been chasing have already had to contend with. What I
think they should do is just vigorously enforce the Blue flag rules.
–
Ron Payne
accipit…@hotmailnospam.com
See my Field Guide To Open Wheel Race Cars:
http://members.fortunecity.com/1accipiter/field_guide.html
………………………………………………………..~o^=o>
Reply to group or E-mail address in message text.
As I mentioned in another post, I don’t think Takagi was there to begin
with. He got between them during the yellow.
"Accipiter" <accipit…@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:fW4j8.7166$P4.599676@newsread2.prod.itd.earthlink.net…
- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -
> No, I hate that rule in NASCAR. It gives guys a free pass around cars that
> the drivers they have been chasing have already had to contend with. What
I
> think they should do is just vigorously enforce the Blue flag rules.
> —
> Ron Payne
> accipit…@hotmailnospam.com
> See my Field Guide To Open Wheel Race Cars:
> http://members.fortunecity.com/1accipiter/field_guide.html
> ………………………………………………………..~o^=o>
> Reply to group or E-mail address in message text.
In article <4616AB708700B77C.A39766533C6817CF.7614662961255…@lp.airnews.net>,
Mark Blackwell <a…@cobweb.net> wrote:
>I do not see any way around late race yellows unless you adopt the F1 policy
>of sending course workers on the track while the cars are still at full
>speed. That I hope they do not do. Its one thing to get a car that is a
>relatively safe area with local yellow and another to send workers a great
>distance away from a protected area. With the track at full speed another
>incident from the same patch of oil could be a very sad situation.
Remember that CART closely controls who goes out on the track and
when. I’ve been on the hot side of the armco during a CART session
and it can be *very* unsettling. You need to have an excellent plan
of what you are going to do when you get there, know where your
escape routes are, what protection you might have (sometimes it’s the
car itself), keep looking uptrack and have someone you trust
without question watching your back. A lot of people who have not
worked corners think it a pretty simple thing to just run out
there and do whatever. Actually there is a lot of thought
that goes into it, and that starts before the first car has
turned a wheel. If I can’t *safely* help in some way (i.e.
get the driver out or somehow get the car going), I’m not
going over the armco. And if I’m going over, I’m going to pick
the spot in traffic where I go.
>The release that F1 corner workers sign might have very little value in the
>US. Granted this race is in Mexico, but I would be interested in hearing
>what the US attorney’s on the group thought. My understanding is that you
>can release negligence but not gross negligence. The difference is what is
>determined after the fact, but I do not think that it would be too much of a
>stretch to see sending people on the track with cars at speed as gross
>negligence but I could be wrong. F1 would just drop the country in which
>such an attempt was made from the series and move it somewhere more F1
>friendly.
I’m not an attorney, but a friend of mine who is has always told me
that releases can always be challenged. And apparently the US isn’t alone.
From talking to some people this weekend (at our SCCA worker training)
who are well plugged into the racing safety community, Australlia was
very fortunate
to have a GP this year after last year’s events (because of legal
issues).
–
| Dave Vollman
Chaos, panic and disorder. | Lucent Technologies, Naperville, IL
My work here is done! | Email: cra…@lucent.com
| Lucent would never let ME speak for THEM!
"Mark Blackwell" <a…@cobweb.net> wrote in message
news:D8E9A91BD542996F.755DF4873A3641EF.51A5FA10152DF80D@lp.airnews.net…
> Well I hope the team took action today, but the new King Tora arrived
today.
> As a result I think that all lapped cars should be moved behind lead lap
> cars inside of 10 laps to go just like NASCAR. Thats one rule they right,
> and if I were Dario I would have been headed to a trailer very quickly
after
> the race. I hope Honda gives him a huge talking to because they are about
> the only ones I bet he would listen to if anyone.
Last year I asked if CART had blue flags like F1 to get rid of incidents
like this and was told that CART doesn’t because their philosophy is that
it’s up to the following driver to make the pass, not the other’s to get out
the way. Put in context with this race, if it was F1 then Tora would haver
been flagged out of the way which would have put Dario right on Christiano’s
tail but as it’s CART, Dario has to fight his way past. I can see the merit
in both ways and think it would be wrong for both to adopt a common set of
rules but I do feel that going into the crucial last few laps, something
could be done to remove back-markers from the lead battles. Could the cars
be shuffled into race order behind the safety-car during yellows?
–
James…
http://www.jameshart.co.uk
"M.F." <f…@videotron.ca> wrote in message
news:3C8CB13E.A0E9B894@videotron.ca…
> Well…I can see both points of view on the subject of getting around
> lapped cars on a post-yellow restart but…
> -As a long time race viewer, I’d say the vast majority of drivers in
> Takagi’s shoes WOULD have moved out of the way. Deal with him first
> because he does have a history of this type of driving. Or maybe I
> missed something and he had his own battle going on? How close was the
> next lapped contender? (Mind you I’m not fishing for excuses here!)
His next closest competitor was at least 2 cars behind. The first four cars
in line were da Matta, Takagi, Franchitti, and Fittipaldi.
> -Did the flaggers show enough enthusiasm in telling him to move out of
> the way? (At that point in the race)…Was Dario really faster on those
> last laps? And why not show him a black flag, they had the time on his
> second time by the start-finish line..that would have given Dario the
> last lap to have a go.
Dario was faster in several places but Takagi was using the racing line. On
a track as slick as Fundidora he could have passed Takagi offline in one of
the corners, but he probably would have just slid offcourse allowing Takagi
to get back by (as happened when Fitipaldi passed Franchitti). As far as
the black flag goes, they really only use that for blatant rules violations.
That’s why they have the layover flag. Unfortunately in CART the layover
flag is just an advisory flag (like the debris/oil flag) rather than a
mandate flag (like it is in F1).
> -A little earlier in the race, Da Matta conveniently "ignored" the pace
> car signal (as I saw it…and I don’t know if the pace car itself did
> not miss him) and the whole field drove around another time. Result: Da
> Matta had one least lap to defend his lead but more importantly, his
> tires were not as hot since he was just out of the pits while Dario was
> at full speed. On the other hand he probably lost the time anyway once
> the parading began.
Being a Franchitti fan, I was a little disappointed by that too. I couldn’t
tell if it was his fault or the pace car’s, but if I were in da Matta’s
shoes I probably would have kept going if it were close. I guess the
question was if he was still racing after taking the yellow. If he were and
passed the pace car I would think that a penalty would definitely have been
in order.
> the pace car pushes a button and the trick is done…No excuses
> possible…SPEED had us in the race direction booth as the guy
> responsible was saying "Tell him to pick up the 6…" and somehow they
> all went around once again…
Maybe my hearing is going from all the engine noise, but I thought that he
said "Tell him to slow down the 6." I took that to mean that the officials
were supposed to get ahold of the 6 team rather than the pace car to catch
the 6, but I could be wrong.
"Michael" <SteveHar…@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:ZZ3j8.83278$0y2.4107752@typhoon.austin.rr.com…
> I thought about Takagi getting in the way too, but I think it would’nt
have
> mattered. The track was too slippery for Dario to make a pass on Takagi so
I
> don’t think he could have made a pass around DaMatta anyway..Dont they
have
> street sweepers in Mexico?
You may be right, but I would have liked to see him try. A driver is
generally more reluctant to take a risk when passing a backmarker who
shouldn’t be in front of you than he would be to pass for the lead on the
last lap.
"Mark McCauley" <sm…@hawkpci.net> wrote in message
news:_b5j8.5278$JZ6.124320@dfw-read.news.verio.net…
> As I mentioned in another post, I don’t think Takagi was there to begin
> with. He got between them during the yellow.
I thought that I heard the announcers say something of the sort, but I can’t
figure how it would have happened. Maybe if he came out of the pits and was
in front of Dario at the blend line? Or did he pass Dario under the yellow,
in which case he should have been black flagged even if it wasn’t a pass for
position.
AFAIK – Takagi came out of the pits between da Matta and Franchitti. If you
taped the race, watch the last shot before the commercial break. I’m pretty
sure that red and white car is Takagi in his pit.
"ocbwilg" <ocbw…@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:Jscj8.178980$s43.39111285@typhoon.columbus.rr.com…
- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -
> I thought that I heard the announcers say something of the sort, but I
can’t
> figure how it would have happened. Maybe if he came out of the pits and
was
> in front of Dario at the blend line? Or did he pass Dario under the
yellow,
> in which case he should have been black flagged even if it wasn’t a pass
for
> position.
I wonder if anyone told him to get in the way since he and da Matta are
using the same engine? I hope not an would like to think not, but who
knows. With the new king’s history, you would have to be very careful
getting around him or you could easily find yourself with no points rather
than the points for second.
–
Mark
"Mark McCauley" <s-mark1…@charter.net> wrote in message
news:u8qr9cft0dqb79@corp.supernews.com…
- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -
> AFAIK – Takagi came out of the pits between da Matta and Franchitti. If
you
> taped the race, watch the last shot before the commercial break. I’m
pretty
> sure that red and white car is Takagi in his pit.
> "ocbwilg" <ocbw…@yahoo.com> wrote in message
> news:Jscj8.178980$s43.39111285@typhoon.columbus.rr.com…
> > I thought that I heard the announcers say something of the sort, but I
> can’t
> > figure how it would have happened. Maybe if he came out of the pits and
> was
> > in front of Dario at the blend line? Or did he pass Dario under the
> yellow,
> > in which case he should have been black flagged even if it wasn’t a pass
> for
> > position.