Court Approves Procedures for CART Asset Sale posted on 01-03 20:22
LANSING, Mich. (Jan 3, 2004) – U.S. Bankruptcy Judge Frank J. Otte made
several definitive decisions Tuesday, Dec. 30, as he approved the procedure
submitted by CART, Inc. to sell its assets and accepted the Open Wheel
Racing Series, LLC ("Open Wheel") proposal to purchase said assets as a
"qualified bid." The proceeding was held in Indianapolis in the Birch Bayh
Federal Building and Courthouse. No other buyers have indicated an interest
in the CART assets to date.
The court also established a timeline to complete the proceedings. Any other
parties interested in submitting competing bids must do so no later than
Jan. 23, and the court will render a final decision with regard to the Open
Wheel proposal on Jan. 28.
"We’re very pleased and encouraged with the proceedings," said Attorney
James Moloy, who represented Open Wheel at the hearing. "The bankruptcy
judge quickly recognized the importance of an expedited sales process in
order to ensure the 2004 Champ Car World Series season.
"The court’s ruling was expected and approved the precise relief requested
by both CART and Open Wheel," added Moloy.
"We continue to have complete confidence in our work and vision for the
Champ Car World Series," explained Paul Gentilozzi, an Open Wheel partner
and owner of Rocketsports Racing. "As the closing of the transaction
progresses, Open Wheel will continue the planning process of the operational
details required to conduct the 2004 Champ Car World Series.
"Our stakeholders and fans continually tell us what a phenomenal product we
have in the Champ Car World Series," continued Gentilozzi. "We completely
agree, and we’re resolute in our intent to return the Series to its rightful
place in the international motorsports arena."
Kevin Kalkhoven, an Open Wheel partner and co-owner of PK Racing, welcomed
the decision.
"This is another important step toward ensuring the future of Champ Car," he
said. "We remain committed to our goal for an expedient resolution so that
our sponsors, teams, promoters, and fans can be assured of yet another
exciting season of Champ Car racing. It’s what they deserve and we intend to
deliver."
The 2004 Champ Car World Series racing season is slated to begin April 18
with its 22nd running of the Toyota Grand Prix of Long Beach. Reigning Champ
Car Drivers’ Champion Paul Tracy will return to defend his 2003 Long Beach
win.
On Sun, 04 Jan 2004 02:15:47 GMT, "Jason Hoehn"
<jasonho…@shaw.getridofthis.nospam.ca> didn’t even bother to check
the dates when he posted this:
>Court Approves Procedures for CART Asset Sale posted on 01-03 20:22
>LANSING, Mich. (Jan 3, 2004) – U.S. Bankruptcy Judge Frank J. Otte made
>several definitive decisions Tuesday, Dec. 30, as he approved the procedure
>submitted by CART, Inc. to sell its assets and accepted the Open Wheel
>Racing Series, LLC ("Open Wheel") proposal to purchase said assets as a
>"qualified bid." The proceeding was held in Indianapolis in the Birch Bayh
>Federal Building and Courthouse. No other buyers have indicated an interest
>in the CART assets to date.
(the rest of OLD, old repost by Mark C. snipped)
Mark C. at AR1 reposts an article that is old news, and has been seen
and reported on here and all over the ‘net, and little Jason sees it
as "Another step forward,…"
BWAAAAAAAAAAAAAA-HAAAAAAAAAAAA-HAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA!
Hilarious!
Talk abut grasping at straws!
Jason, my boy – This is nothing new. This is exactly what happened
over a week ago. The judge didn’t rule on anything different. This is
no more a step forward than it was a week ago.
LOOK AT THE DATE, JASON! DECEMBER 30th!
There will be no new developments form the court for another 11 to 12
days, little Jason.
oh,
this is rich………….
"CFster" <cfs…@deletemecox.net> wrote in message
news:xdyJb.33955$F22.17525@lakeread02…
- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -
> You win. I’m out.
> A long time poster and fan of CART – I’m leaving. This can go on forever,
> but frankly I haven’t the time in my life to exchange insults with you on
a
> daily basis.
> Apparently I was wrong about another poster here as well.
> I’ve come to realize that being a CART fan has nothing to do with, nor is
> dependant on visiting this NG. There are many other forums (on the net and
> otherwise) out there where people can exchange ideas in an adult manner.
> There’s a reason people like you are here – you call it freedom of speech
(I
> think you’re abusing it), I call it lack of supervision on your part.
> You enjoy…what ever it is that you are trying to do here.
> CFster
What gets me is that the guy hates Champcars and anything and
everything attached to it. But I am unsure what he actually likes. So
why he bothers to spend his life posting on a CART only forum is
beyond me.
We all acknowledge that the management of CART has a lot to answer
for. However, I for one enjoy Champcars racing and for me I enjoy it
much more than the IRL. IMHO singleseater Oval only tarmac racing has
a limited interest factor. But I am more than willing to see that some
others may disagree with this. So I don’t spend my life dumping on IRL
spcific forums. Why bother, especially when many decent racers make
their living in that series, for now.
Takes all sorts.
Maybe this guy is a wannbe TG?
Here’s looking forward to a 2004 Champcar series…. Good luck to all.
On 3 Jan 2004 17:02:34 -0800, i…@jardine.net (Ian) wrote:
- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -
>What gets me is that the guy hates Champcars and anything and
>everything attached to it. But I am unsure what he actually likes. So
>why he bothers to spend his life posting on a CART only forum is
>beyond me.
>We all acknowledge that the management of CART has a lot to answer
>for. However, I for one enjoy Champcars racing and for me I enjoy it
>much more than the IRL. IMHO singleseater Oval only tarmac racing has
>a limited interest factor. But I am more than willing to see that some
>others may disagree with this. So I don’t spend my life dumping on IRL
>spcific forums. Why bother, especially when many decent racers make
>their living in that series, for now.
>Takes all sorts.
>Maybe this guy is a wannbe TG?
>Here’s looking forward to a 2004 Champcar series…. Good luck to all.
One day he will grow up (regardless of his actual age). And one day he
may do a search of all his own posts, realize that there is a
permanent record of them, and realize what an ass he looks like.
On Sat, 3 Jan 2004 07:04:44 -0500, "CFster" <cfs…@deletemecox.net>
wrote:
>You win. I’m out.
Rise up on your hind legs, beat your chest with false bravado, and
then run away, eh?
>A long time poster and fan of CART – I’m leaving. This can go on forever,
>but frankly I haven’t the time in my life to exchange insults with you on a
>daily basis.
Nobody ever asked you to, CFster. You took it upon yourself to
respond.
If you want to try and blame me for your departure – fine.
It’s a rather poor rationalization, and certainly dishonest. I do
nothing to MAKE you respond or reply to my posts. YOU responded and
replied to my posts. YOU took the time. I did not force you to, or
even suggest that you do so.
Hence, the only reason you might be leaving is YOU – no one else.
>Apparently I was wrong about another poster here as well.
You, wrong?
That’s not possible, is it? ;-)
>I’ve come to realize that being a CART fan has nothing to do with, nor is
>dependant on visiting this NG. There are many other forums (on the net and
>otherwise) out there where people can exchange ideas in an adult manner.
If all you want is rosy, sugar-coated, upbeat, back-slapping,
flag-waving support of the now bankrupt CART, or of the the "Three
Amigos" and their duplicity, or baseless optimism regarding OWRS and
its motivations and intentions – then you are right – this is NOT the
place.
I would think http://www.crapwagon.com would be your exact fit.
They are SOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO adult over there!
>There’s a reason people like you are here – you call it freedom of speech (I
>think you’re abusing it)
How am I abusing it, Mr. Amendment Man?
>I call it lack of supervision on your part.
Is this group moderated?
Who supervises you, sir?
Where is your righteous "supervision" for people like JStOnge or
PhilipT631, etc.?
What you want is the anti-IRL to run rampant and post whatever they
like, but for the anti-CART crowd to be "supervised."
That, CFster, is not "freedom of speech" – that is abusing it.
>You enjoy…what ever it is that you are trying to do here.
Thanks, I will. Enjoy your bananas.
On Sun, 04 Jan 2004 00:24:33 GMT, "Smokey" <BD…@hotmail.com> wrote:
>oh,
>this is rich………….
Isn’t it, though?
- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -
>"CFster" <cfs…@deletemecox.net> wrote in message
>news:xdyJb.33955$F22.17525@lakeread02…
>> You win. I’m out.
>> A long time poster and fan of CART – I’m leaving. This can go on forever,
>> but frankly I haven’t the time in my life to exchange insults with you on
>a
>> daily basis.
>> Apparently I was wrong about another poster here as well.
>> I’ve come to realize that being a CART fan has nothing to do with, nor is
>> dependant on visiting this NG. There are many other forums (on the net and
>> otherwise) out there where people can exchange ideas in an adult manner.
>> There’s a reason people like you are here – you call it freedom of speech
>(I
>> think you’re abusing it), I call it lack of supervision on your part.
>> You enjoy…what ever it is that you are trying to do here.
>> CFster
- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -
jtees4 <jte…@hotmail.com> wrote in message <news:fvsevv06dh1tqdk8hipggb31m2ss9nmhpu@4ax.com>…
> On 3 Jan 2004 17:02:34 -0800, i…@jardine.net (Ian) wrote:
> >What gets me is that the guy hates Champcars and anything and
> >everything attached to it. But I am unsure what he actually likes. So
> >why he bothers to spend his life posting on a CART only forum is
> >beyond me.
> >We all acknowledge that the management of CART has a lot to answer
> >for. However, I for one enjoy Champcars racing and for me I enjoy it
> >much more than the IRL. IMHO singleseater Oval only tarmac racing has
> >a limited interest factor. But I am more than willing to see that some
> >others may disagree with this. So I don’t spend my life dumping on IRL
> >spcific forums. Why bother, especially when many decent racers make
> >their living in that series, for now.
> >Takes all sorts.
> >Maybe this guy is a wannbe TG?
> >Here’s looking forward to a 2004 Champcar series…. Good luck to all.
> One day he will grow up (regardless of his actual age). And one day he
> may do a search of all his own posts, realize that there is a
> permanent record of them, and realize what an ass he looks like.
His complete denial and his well-documented inability to perceive his
own self as others do, assures this will never occur.
"Chipmental" <right.b…@you.gov> wrote in message
news:Xns9464E28CAF371chipmentalnetscape@207.217.77.202…
- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -
> It is pretty amazing how one individual can dominate a newsgroup. What is
> REALLY incredible, though, is all of the people who respond to this
> trolling one-person crusade. Ignore him and he’ll eventually find another
> target for his obsession.
> IMO, it’s not too surprising that quality racing may fall by the wayside –
> NASCAR (which my six-year-old son once described as "the Dukes Of Hazzard
> driving in circles") is the biggest spectator sport in America. Keep in
> mind that this is also the country where "Laverne & Shirley" was the
number
> one show for two or three years in a row. And also remember that
McDonald’s
> is the most "successful" restaurant chain. All of which (again, IMO) seems
> to indicate a preference for bland, dependable activity with minimal
> variety and surprises. Most of my neighbors & co-workers sure seem to
> prefer "routine" over the unexpected, unusual or inconvenient.
> If CART does fail – which is quite likely, as bankruptcy can be full of
> interesting twists – I won’t watch the IRL for the same reason I ignore
> most NASCAR races . . . I find them BORING. One race looks pretty much
like
> any other. The notable exceptions in NASCAR are Sears Point & Watkins Glen
> – both of which I DO make an effort to watch.
> Just my $0.02US. Results not typical. Your mileage may vary. Prices higher
> in AK and HI. Not available in all 50 states (sorry Tennessee). May cause
> swelling of the synaptic joints. Discontinue use if irritation occurs.
> —
> CHiP
You make WAY too much sense to post to a group that ‘Billy’ has taken as his
own. Maybe he should have his own group, rec.autos.sport.hatecart
Whatever happens with CART happens. Some of us here are actual racers/race
fans, with no agenda, no sense of self-agrandisement, who simply wish
success for all racers, whatever the series may be.
Wishing failure upon others is not a really attractive trait. Billy has yet
to figure out how dumb it makes him look.
Billy, the guy who has to change nics every week or so, in order to baffle
all those who killfile him on a regular basis.
—-== Posted via Newsfeed.Com – Unlimited-Uncensored-Secure Usenet News==—-
http://www.newsfeed.com The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World! >100,000 Newsgroups
—= 19 East/West-Coast Specialized Servers – Total Privacy via Encryption =—
"Chipmental" <right.b…@you.gov> wrote in message
news:Xns9464E28CAF371chipmentalnetscape@207.217.77.202…
- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -
> It is pretty amazing how one individual can dominate a newsgroup. What is
> REALLY incredible, though, is all of the people who respond to this
> trolling one-person crusade. Ignore him and he’ll eventually find another
> target for his obsession.
> IMO, it’s not too surprising that quality racing may fall by the wayside –
> NASCAR (which my six-year-old son once described as "the Dukes Of Hazzard
> driving in circles") is the biggest spectator sport in America. Keep in
> mind that this is also the country where "Laverne & Shirley" was the
number
> one show for two or three years in a row. And also remember that
McDonald’s
> is the most "successful" restaurant chain. All of which (again, IMO) seems
> to indicate a preference for bland, dependable activity with minimal
> variety and surprises. Most of my neighbors & co-workers sure seem to
> prefer "routine" over the unexpected, unusual or inconvenient.
> If CART does fail – which is quite likely, as bankruptcy can be full of
> interesting twists – I won’t watch the IRL for the same reason I ignore
> most NASCAR races . . . I find them BORING. One race looks pretty much
like
> any other. The notable exceptions in NASCAR are Sears Point & Watkins Glen
> – both of which I DO make an effort to watch.
> Just my $0.02US. Results not typical. Your mileage may vary. Prices higher
> in AK and HI. Not available in all 50 states (sorry Tennessee). May cause
> swelling of the synaptic joints. Discontinue use if irritation occurs.
> —
It always amuses me that superior beings such as yourself find time for
Usenet. Your neighbors and coworkers are so lucky to have you around to
elevate their humdrum existence. I am sure you have never lowered yourself
to watch network sitcoms or eaten at a fast food restaurant in your adult
life.
I have a newflash for you. CART has failed. They did not even run their
last scheduled race. The only way CART was ever able to draw a large number
of fans was at the street races where 93% of the attendees came to see the
spectacle for free. At the closed courses there were not enough paying fans
to support the cost of one race team, let alone a full field.
If you and Juan and Iain and the rest need your open wheel road racing so
badly perhaps you should try paying for it. That plan seems to work for the
NASCAR series that your child disdains.
> If you and Juan and Iain and the rest need your open wheel road racing so
> badly perhaps you should try paying for it. That plan seems to work for
the
> NASCAR series that your child disdains.
I do pay for my racing when I go to the circuits & watch – which I do 3 or 4
times a year & take in various circuits & different types of racing. I think
I’m going to try & catch some bike racing this year because I’ve never been
to that – probably British Superbikes or maybe World Superbikes. I also pay
for a cable package that brings me a whole variety of stuff on top of what I
can get here for free.
I can guarantee you one thing I won’t pay for this year though (again) – the
Indy 500. It will be on a subscription sports channel here (in the UK) as it
has been for the last 7 or 8 years…..I stopped watching it the year of the
split - it isn’t/wasn’t worth the $20 or so they want for a month’s subs to
the necessary channel. So I just watched the highlights on one of the free
terrestrial channels a few days after the event and nothing I’ve seen in the
last 7 or 8 years gave me any cause to regret saving the $20 each year!
F1 is shown live on free terrestrial here as is the IRL – usually at about
3am a few days after the event. My Tivo grabs that & I "scan" it. The IRL is
also on the afforenmentioned subscription sports channel (which I don’t
take). CART was on Eurosport which is part of my basic cable package (as is
Nascar). World Superbikes & MotoGP, Australian V8s etc etc etc are all
available as part of the standard package that I have and pay for.
next….
I.
I am so glad that you will not be watching this years 500 Iain. Hate to see
so much effort wasted on those who do not appreciate it.
"Iain Miller" <do…@spam.me> wrote in message
news:SWBJb.15963$526.106785@newsfep4-glfd.server.ntli.net…
- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -
> > If you and Juan and Iain and the rest need your open wheel road racing
so
> > badly perhaps you should try paying for it. That plan seems to work for
> the
> > NASCAR series that your child disdains.
> I do pay for my racing when I go to the circuits & watch – which I do 3 or
4
> times a year & take in various circuits & different types of racing. I
think
> I’m going to try & catch some bike racing this year because I’ve never
been
> to that – probably British Superbikes or maybe World Superbikes. I also
pay
> for a cable package that brings me a whole variety of stuff on top of what
I
> can get here for free.
> I can guarantee you one thing I won’t pay for this year though (again) –
the
> Indy 500. It will be on a subscription sports channel here (in the UK) as
it
> has been for the last 7 or 8 years…..I stopped watching it the year of
the
> split - it isn’t/wasn’t worth the $20 or so they want for a month’s subs
to
> the necessary channel. So I just watched the highlights on one of the free
> terrestrial channels a few days after the event and nothing I’ve seen in
the
> last 7 or 8 years gave me any cause to regret saving the $20 each year!
> F1 is shown live on free terrestrial here as is the IRL – usually at about
> 3am a few days after the event. My Tivo grabs that & I "scan" it. The IRL
is
> also on the afforenmentioned subscription sports channel (which I don’t
> take). CART was on Eurosport which is part of my basic cable package (as
is
> Nascar). World Superbikes & MotoGP, Australian V8s etc etc etc are all
> available as part of the standard package that I have and pay for.
> next….
> I.
"Chipmental" <right.b…@you.gov> wrote in message
news:Xns9464E28CAF371chipmentalnetscape@207.217.77.202…
- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -
> It is pretty amazing how one individual can dominate a newsgroup. What is
> REALLY incredible, though, is all of the people who respond to this
> trolling one-person crusade. Ignore him and he’ll eventually find another
> target for his obsession.
> IMO, it’s not too surprising that quality racing may fall by the wayside –
> NASCAR (which my six-year-old son once described as "the Dukes Of Hazzard
> driving in circles") is the biggest spectator sport in America. Keep in
> mind that this is also the country where "Laverne & Shirley" was the
number
> one show for two or three years in a row. And also remember that
McDonald’s
> is the most "successful" restaurant chain. All of which (again, IMO) seems
> to indicate a preference for bland, dependable activity with minimal
> variety and surprises. Most of my neighbors & co-workers sure seem to
> prefer "routine" over the unexpected, unusual or inconvenient.
> If CART does fail – which is quite likely, as bankruptcy can be full of
> interesting twists – I won’t watch the IRL for the same reason I ignore
> most NASCAR races . . . I find them BORING.
Like the Cart street parades…………………… Get real.
One race looks pretty much like
- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -
> any other. The notable exceptions in NASCAR are Sears Point & Watkins Glen
> – both of which I DO make an effort to watch.
> Just my $0.02US. Results not typical. Your mileage may vary. Prices higher
> in AK and HI. Not available in all 50 states (sorry Tennessee). May cause
> swelling of the synaptic joints. Discontinue use if irritation occurs.
> —
> CHiP
- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -
—– Original Message —–
From: "Smokey" <BD…@hotmail.com>
Newsgroups: rec.autos.sport.cart
Sent: Sunday, January 04, 2004 12:33 AM
Subject: Re: Silent (yeah, right!) post for RASC
> I am so glad that you will not be watching this years 500 Iain. Hate to
see
> so much effort wasted on those who do not appreciate it.
Funny attitude if you still want to be watching the thing in 5 or 10 years
time. If you want to see a race at Indy in years to come time you need
millions of others to be watching it as well.
The fact that people with a general interest in racing (as opposed to
hardcore IRL/Indy fans) don’t want to watch is precisely the 500′s (not to
mention the IRL’s) problem. We’ve been switching off in droves over the last
8 years and if we arn’t watching it then neither are our kids – the next
generation of race fans.
As someone else has been saying hereabouts about CART (quite correctly) – if
there arn’t enough viewers then the TV goes away, then the sponsors go away
& then there isn’t a race/series. It would seem sensible to be trying to do
something about halting the decline before it gets anywhere near the
critical point and that’s not happening that I can see.
I hope (for your sake) the management of Indy/the IRL doesn’t share your
view. Frankly they should care less who watches the thing or whether we
"appreciate it" – as long as enough of us do tune in.
I.
"Iain Miller" <do…@spam.me> wrote in message
news:Ca0Kb.17045$526.113621@newsfep4-glfd.server.ntli.net…
- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -
> —– Original Message —–
> From: "Smokey" <BD…@hotmail.com>
> Newsgroups: rec.autos.sport.cart
> Sent: Sunday, January 04, 2004 12:33 AM
> Subject: Re: Silent (yeah, right!) post for RASC
> > I am so glad that you will not be watching this years 500 Iain. Hate to
> see
> > so much effort wasted on those who do not appreciate it.
> Funny attitude if you still want to be watching the thing in 5 or 10 years
> time. If you want to see a race at Indy in years to come time you need
> millions of others to be watching it as well.
> The fact that people with a general interest in racing (as opposed to
> hardcore IRL/Indy fans) don’t want to watch is precisely the 500′s (not to
> mention the IRL’s) problem. We’ve been switching off in droves over the
last
> 8 years and if we arn’t watching it then neither are our kids – the next
> generation of race fans.
> As someone else has been saying hereabouts about CART (quite correctly) –
if
> there arn’t enough viewers then the TV goes away, then the sponsors go
away
> & then there isn’t a race/series. It would seem sensible to be trying to
do
> something about halting the decline before it gets anywhere near the
> critical point and that’s not happening that I can see.
> I hope (for your sake) the management of Indy/the IRL doesn’t share your
> view. Frankly they should care less who watches the thing or whether we
> "appreciate it" – as long as enough of us do tune in.
> I.
If I remember correctly, you said you wouldnt watch it.
I can handle that.
I dont need to spew paragraphs on it either Iain. I simply stated a response
to your comment.
And you complain about others!!
Smokey
"Smokey" <BD…@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:d4998438be37d465a58daf028c4cc307@news.teranews.com…
- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -
> "Iain Miller" <do…@spam.me> wrote in message
> news:Ca0Kb.17045$526.113621@newsfep4-glfd.server.ntli.net…
> > —– Original Message —–
> > From: "Smokey" <BD…@hotmail.com>
> > Newsgroups: rec.autos.sport.cart
> > Sent: Sunday, January 04, 2004 12:33 AM
> > Subject: Re: Silent (yeah, right!) post for RASC
> > > I am so glad that you will not be watching this years 500 Iain. Hate
to
> > see
> > > so much effort wasted on those who do not appreciate it.
> > Funny attitude if you still want to be watching the thing in 5 or 10
years
> > time. If you want to see a race at Indy in years to come time you need
> > millions of others to be watching it as well.
> > The fact that people with a general interest in racing (as opposed to
> > hardcore IRL/Indy fans) don’t want to watch is precisely the 500′s (not
to
> > mention the IRL’s) problem. We’ve been switching off in droves over the
> last
> > 8 years and if we arn’t watching it then neither are our kids – the next
> > generation of race fans.
> > As someone else has been saying hereabouts about CART (quite
correctly) –
> if
> > there arn’t enough viewers then the TV goes away, then the sponsors go
> away
> > & then there isn’t a race/series. It would seem sensible to be trying to
> do
> > something about halting the decline before it gets anywhere near the
> > critical point and that’s not happening that I can see.
> > I hope (for your sake) the management of Indy/the IRL doesn’t share your
> > view. Frankly they should care less who watches the thing or whether we
> > "appreciate it" – as long as enough of us do tune in.
> > I.
> If I remember correctly, you said you wouldnt watch it.
> I can handle that.
> I dont need to spew paragraphs on it either Iain. I simply stated a
response
> to your comment.
> And you complain about others!!
OK….the object wasn’t to start yet another endless thread filled with
invective, accusation or abuse. Those are not terribly constructive and are
clearly driving people away from this NG (and RASI) to the point where there
is almost nothing being said.
There is actually a serious point behind this which I have made above –
perhaps, granted, with somewhat too much "acidity".
I don’t know what they do about the issue but if the ratings slide again
this year it has to become a serious problem – that’s all I meant to say.
The Indy 500 has lost a lot of viewers in recent years. If its down to the
hard core now then it will be OK, if it isn’t & it keeps on sliding then the
ramifications for Open Wheel Racing at the top level in the US are
disastrous I think. We need to see what happens this year and next but my
hope is that they get the whole mess sorted out, unified and start marketing
it properly. I think that to do that they need to bring it back to a mixed
series of Ovals, Roads & no more than 2 or 3 Street circuits to give it the
widest possible appeal. Stick the whole thing under new management and sell
the hell out of it to bring back all the fans that were there 10 years ago
and encourage them to bring their kids with them.
Alternatively they can do nothing and the end result will be that top level
Open Wheel Racing becomes a very minor interest sport that can’t be made to
pay, followed by oblivion. You may see it differently but all the stats that
matter (i.e. the TV ratings) are not promising nor, I think, supportive of
a different view.
That’s my version of what needs to happen, what’s your view?
I.
On Sat, 3 Jan 2004 00:16:50 -0800, "Alan Sandoval"
<alan.s@(removespam)intertrader.net> wrote:
>Whatever happens with CART happens. Some of us here are actual racers/race
>fans, with no agenda, no sense of self-agrandisement, who simply wish
>success for all racers, whatever the series may be.
Then why all your previous potshots at the IRL, Sandoval?
>Wishing failure upon others is not a really attractive trait. Billy has yet
>to figure out how dumb it makes him look.
Then how does it make all the anti-IRLer’s look?
>Billy, the guy who has to change nics every week or so, in order to baffle
>all those who killfile him on a regular basis.
Better check those dates again, Sandoval.
On Mon, 5 Jan 2004 01:32:12 -0000, "Iain Miller" <do…@spam.me>
wrote:
- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -
>"Smokey" <BD…@hotmail.com> wrote in message
>news:d4998438be37d465a58daf028c4cc307@news.teranews.com…
>> "Iain Miller" <do…@spam.me> wrote in message
>> news:Ca0Kb.17045$526.113621@newsfep4-glfd.server.ntli.net…
>> > —– Original Message —–
>> > From: "Smokey" <BD…@hotmail.com>
>> > Newsgroups: rec.autos.sport.cart
>> > Sent: Sunday, January 04, 2004 12:33 AM
>> > Subject: Re: Silent (yeah, right!) post for RASC
>> > > I am so glad that you will not be watching this years 500 Iain. Hate
>to
>> > see
>> > > so much effort wasted on those who do not appreciate it.
>> > Funny attitude if you still want to be watching the thing in 5 or 10
>years
>> > time. If you want to see a race at Indy in years to come time you need
>> > millions of others to be watching it as well.
>> > The fact that people with a general interest in racing (as opposed to
>> > hardcore IRL/Indy fans) don’t want to watch is precisely the 500′s (not
>to
>> > mention the IRL’s) problem. We’ve been switching off in droves over the
>> last
>> > 8 years and if we arn’t watching it then neither are our kids – the next
>> > generation of race fans.
>> > As someone else has been saying hereabouts about CART (quite
>correctly) –
>> if
>> > there arn’t enough viewers then the TV goes away, then the sponsors go
>> away
>> > & then there isn’t a race/series. It would seem sensible to be trying to
>> do
>> > something about halting the decline before it gets anywhere near the
>> > critical point and that’s not happening that I can see.
>> > I hope (for your sake) the management of Indy/the IRL doesn’t share your
>> > view. Frankly they should care less who watches the thing or whether we
>> > "appreciate it" – as long as enough of us do tune in.
>> > I.
>> If I remember correctly, you said you wouldnt watch it.
>> I can handle that.
>> I dont need to spew paragraphs on it either Iain. I simply stated a
>response
>> to your comment.
>> And you complain about others!!
>OK….the object wasn’t to start yet another endless thread filled with
>invective, accusation or abuse. Those are not terribly constructive and are
>clearly driving people away from this NG (and RASI) to the point where there
>is almost nothing being said.
Then why do you do it?
(for Sea Fable, careful, it’s a trap)
>There is actually a serious point behind this which I have made above –
>perhaps, granted, with somewhat too much "acidity".
When you do it it is just a tiny bit too much "acidity." right?
But when someone else does it is everything wrong you can name it, eh?
- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -
>I don’t know what they do about the issue but if the ratings slide again
>this year it has to become a serious problem – that’s all I meant to say.
>The Indy 500 has lost a lot of viewers in recent years. If its down to the
>hard core now then it will be OK, if it isn’t & it keeps on sliding then the
>ramifications for Open Wheel Racing at the top level in the US are
>disastrous I think. We need to see what happens this year and next but my
>hope is that they get the whole mess sorted out, unified and start marketing
>it properly. I think that to do that they need to bring it back to a mixed
>series of Ovals, Roads & no more than 2 or 3 Street circuits to give it the
>widest possible appeal. Stick the whole thing under new management and sell
>the hell out of it to bring back all the fans that were there 10 years ago
>and encourage them to bring their kids with them.
>Alternatively they can do nothing and the end result will be that top level
>Open Wheel Racing becomes a very minor interest sport that can’t be made to
>pay, followed by oblivion. You may see it differently but all the stats that
>matter (i.e. the TV ratings) are not promising nor, I think, supportive of
>a different view.
>That’s my version of what needs to happen, what’s your view?
Why didn’t you just say that in the first place, weeks ago?
"Billy Chapel" <outofopti…@outoftime.com> wrote in message
news:1109d93cb3101521a0f5655a1962eb28@news.teranews.com…
> On Sat, 3 Jan 2004 00:16:50 -0800, "Alan Sandoval"
> <alan.s@(removespam)intertrader.net> wrote:
> >Billy, the guy who has to change nics every week or so, in order to
baffle
> >all those who killfile him on a regular basis.
> Better check those dates again, Sandoval.
Isn’t it time for a new name yet? I’m getting tired of waiting for it. ;-)
alien
> >That’s my version of what needs to happen, what’s your view?
> Why didn’t you just say that in the first place, weeks ago?
…and your view?
I.
- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -
On Mon, 05 Jan 2004 18:59:22 GMT, "alien" <nofen…@bwsys.net> wrote:
>"Billy Chapel" <outofopti…@outoftime.com> wrote in message
>news:1109d93cb3101521a0f5655a1962eb28@news.teranews.com…
>> On Sat, 3 Jan 2004 00:16:50 -0800, "Alan Sandoval"
>> <alan.s@(removespam)intertrader.net> wrote:
>> >Billy, the guy who has to change nics every week or so, in order to
>baffle
>> >all those who killfile him on a regular basis.
>> Better check those dates again, Sandoval.
>Isn’t it time for a new name yet? I’m getting tired of waiting for it. ;-)
I kind of like this one, and besides – it really seems to be driving
them worse nuts now that I am not changing the ‘nym! ;-)
>alien
And, as you can see, the best ones are already taken! :-)
On Mon, 5 Jan 2004 20:03:08 -0000, "Iain Miller" <do…@spam.me>
wrote:
>> >That’s my version of what needs to happen, what’s your view?
>> Why didn’t you just say that in the first place, weeks ago?
>…and your view?
Okay. Remember, you asked for it.
I don’t care what friggin’ cars they run – be them CART cars, IRL
cars, or old Watson roadsters – other than they need to make the
driver a bigger part of the equation.
Both CART and the IRL got so lost in wanting aero downforce that they
forgot (as Gary Shell and I have both alluded to) that people really
come to a race to see the DRIVERS!
Sure, whiz-bang looking rocket sleds capture the fans imagination for
a bit, but they cannot hold it. Like all sports, racing is PERSONALITY
driven. It’s the "thrill of victory" or "the agony of defeat" of the
PARTICIPANTS that spectators of all sports go for, not which V-10 blew
up first or how "these cars have so much downforce they could run on
the ceiling" crap spewed out by commentators.
I personaly believe that’s why Sarah Fisher WAS voted the most popular
driver in the IRL. There was at least some human "drama" (for want of
a better term) there.
The rest of the IRL and CART both had about as much true human
on-track "drama" as a board meeting of the "Boring People for Mundane
Lives" Foundation.
And let me point out here, crashes, accidents, and injuries are not
the kind of human "drama" I am referring to. NOBODY in their right
mind wants to see anyone get hurt on a race track, period.
That said, however, the "wrestling of the vicious beast" element of
racing should not be discounted. I firmly believe that one of the
almost instinctive reasons people are fascinated with racing is the
"edge of disaster" and "near death" aspect of these drivers doing
something most people would be scared to death to do themselves.
Open-wheel racing in North America needs to be under one umbrella. It
only makes sense. There are NOT two F-1 series. There are certainly
series leading up to F-1, but not a pair of F-1′s. That’s why the
previous threat of there being two never held up. Regardless of what
they may have said, even the manufacturers knew that would never fly,
or it would destroy the sport in the process.
Like it or not, when it comes to big time open-wheel racing in North
America, there is the Indy 500, and then there is everything else.
Whatever the PREMIER open-wheel series is in NA, it needs to be firmly
tied to the Indy 500. Saying it is "just another race" or that you can
host a series claiming to be a PREMIER open-wheel NA series is just
ludicrous. It cannot, and will not, work under the current climate and
given the sports’ history and legacy in the USA.
Now, although I said I don’t care what cars run in it, I do have a
preference. I think they need FAR less aerodynamic downforce and aids,
narrower tires (and maybe even smaller diameter ones, though the
diameter does have some safety benefits) for less grip. Just as
important, I think they need MORE horsepower. The idea is that any
PREMIER level race car should be DIFFICULT to master and excel in.
CART and IRL cars are BOTH far too easy to drive near to their limit.
(notice I said NEAR to their limit. Still only a few drivers can drive
them AT their limits, but having so many lesser skilled drivers able
to get NEAR that limit causes more problems than it solves).
I also do not think any PREMIER series should be a SPEC series. CART
and the IRL BOTH have erred too far towards SPEC series in the past,
and what CART was in 2003 was idiotic. Technical diversity attracts
the best people to the teams, as far as engineers, mechanics, etc. It
also lends more, IMHO believe it or not, MORE of an air of "humanity"
to a racing series. Someone waltzes in with, say, a Penske "Panzer"
motor and whips everybody, then you either cheer them or hate them.
Someone strolls in with a Greenfield V-8 trying to do the same thing
and it is a dismal failure people either admire them or wonder what
they were thinking, but either way, it garners a human emotion and
response.
Jim Hall was never able to defeat the "Bruce and Denny Show" but it
was sure fun watching him try to so it technically. And again, it is
not the technology itself that fascinates the fans, but the people
involved with the technology. Just witness the intial reactions when
Renault first ran turbos in F-1, or when some teams tried to hold out
with NA engines against the continued onslaught or the turbos. That
was human "drama."
That is all but gone now in F-1, too. who would have ever thought that
F-1 would MANDATE the engine confirguration of the cars?
Ludicrous. Simply ludicrous.
Now it does seem to work for NASCAR, so I am probably all wrong there,
but you asked.
And because I am probably all wrong is also why I said the car
configuration doesn’t really matter to the success of the series.
I do think that North America’s PREMIER open-wheel series should be
run on both road circuits and ovals. It is strictly a personal
opinion, but I think street circuits do more to "dumb down" racing
than anything else. It can certainly be argued that you can have BIG
crowds at a street circuit event, but did you really cultivate any
long-term race fans, or just fans of that street "party" event? That’s
the problem I see with street circuit events. A large portion of the
people are there at them to be "there" and be "seen" at them, not
because they care one whit about the racing, nor will they ever. They
go for the "society" aspect of it, and nothing else. Sure, some (a
very small percentage, IMHO) may become real racing fans, but not
enough to justify the long term damage I think it does to the sport.
Racing actually not only survived, but flourished, prior to the
proliferation of street events, and if you look, you can see a
downward trend in almost any series as it became more and more
dependent on street circuit antics (IMSA, for one, and CART for
another). You have never seen NASCAR see the need for a street circuit
event, and as you well know not many have survived in F-1. Most have
been short-term disasters, and Bernie was smart enough not to keep
going back to that well.
Whatever sanctioning body has this PREMIER NA open-wheel series has to
start to learn to promote the DRIVERS, and not themselves. You need
look no further than NASCAR in this country to see the fruits of that
thinking. Over here, people may cheer for the Yankees (or hate ‘em),
but they go to see the players, not the bats and the gloves.
Television needs to made a partner in all of this, much like NASCAR
has tried to do. They CANNOT be simply someone you buy airtime from.
They have to have a vested interest in promoting and furthering the
series and its personalities. They have to have a financial interest
in seeing the series be a success, and actively get involved with the
series in cultivating sponsorship and funding, and be willing to share
in the proceeds of the co-marketing of the sport, much like it is in
the NFL.
There is more, but this has run on long enough to continue the
discussion, so I will turn over the next segment ot you.
What do you think of my analysis?
>rom: Billy Chapel outofopti…@outoftime.com
post #50 for you today?
GET A LIFE
>From: Billy Chapel outofopti…@outoftime.com
#51 and counting
"Billy Chapel" <outofopti…@outoftime.com> wrote in message
news:dde3573bdf894fa87f620493e98d188c@news.teranews.com…
> On Mon, 5 Jan 2004 20:03:08 -0000, "Iain Miller" <do…@spam.me>
> wrote:
> >> >That’s my version of what needs to happen, what’s your view?
> >> Why didn’t you just say that in the first place, weeks ago?
> >…and your view?
> Okay. Remember, you asked for it.
<Snipped in the interests of keeping the thread short -ish (!) >
> What do you think of my analysis?
Just about spot on.
The only thing that is going to be difficult is running cars that are
inherently more skittish (less grip/more power) on the Ovals. That said it
should space them out a bit more & so that would be better.
You mentioned NASCAR not running on streets, the closest comparison would be
with the Australian V8s & they hump those things round a few street tracks
quite succesfully (as well as Mt Panorama). As I think I said somewhere else
there is room for 2, maybe 3 street circuits but no more than that – LB has
to be one & maybe Surfers Paradise which seems to be a succesful event. If I
had to split it I’d say 10% streets, 50-60% roads & the rest Ovals. If you
are going to have low downforce, high powered cars then the roads will be
the best place to watch ‘em.
I don’t have a problem with the mandated configuration of engines in F1
there is still a fair old difference in horsepower between the best & the
worst (or even the best & the middle) indicating that there is room for
innovation within the regulations.
Have you seen the nose on the new Williams launched today?
If not http://f1.racing-live.com/photos/2004/team-williams/diapo_102.jpg -
Already being referred to as "The Walrus" over in RASF1. Its either a
complete red herring to confuse everyone else or they’ve found something
new. We’ll see in testing but only really know the answer at Melbourne.
Personally, I loved the "Penske Panzers" – I thought they were a great idea.
I.
On 05 Jan 2004 22:08:33 GMT, philipt…@aol.com (PhilipT631) wrote:
>>rom: Billy Chapel outofopti…@outoftime.com
>post #50 for you today?
Oh, hell NO! It’s a lot more than that!
>GET A LIFE
I have one, thank you!
Why don’t you get one outside of the "port-o-johnny"?
On 05 Jan 2004 22:08:51 GMT, philipt…@aol.com (PhilipT631) wrote:
>>From: Billy Chapel outofopti…@outoftime.com
>#51 and counting
You’re way short, but then again, giving the content of your posts one
would gather you cannot count.
On Mon, 5 Jan 2004 22:20:18 -0000, "Iain Miller" <do…@spam.me>
wrote:
>> What do you think of my analysis?
>Just about spot on.
Well, I’ll be damned!
Gary Shell, Iain, and I all agreeing on something in the same week!
Will wonders of the universe never cease?
>The only thing that is going to be difficult is running cars that are
>inherently more skittish (less grip/more power) on the Ovals. That said it
>should space them out a bit more & so that would be better.
They should be "skittish." The drivers should HAVE to lift for the
corner. That’s what separates the men from the boys (or the girls, if
applicable).
I contend that the racing would be far SAFER if there was more power
and less downforce and grip, as we would see who could actually drive
and who couldn’t VERY quickly. This would do two things:
1.) Spread the field out a bit more on ovals and require more respect
between drivers.
2.) Quickly and efficiently weed out the ones that shouldn’t be there
and have them replaced with more deserving and higher skilled talent.
(See Sarah Fisher and A.J. Foyt IntraVenous)
>You mentioned NASCAR not running on streets, the closest comparison would be
>with the Australian V8s & they hump those things round a few street tracks
>quite succesfully (as well as Mt Panorama). As I think I said somewhere else
>there is room for 2, maybe 3 street circuits but no more than that – LB has
>to be one & maybe Surfers Paradise which seems to be a succesful event. If I
>had to split it I’d say 10% streets, 50-60% roads & the rest Ovals. If you
>are going to have low downforce, high powered cars then the roads will be
>the best place to watch ‘em.
It is certainly a matter of personal preference, but I would like to
see NO street circuits, but if you had to have two, Long Beach and
Surfers I could live with.
After that I prefer a slightly different split than you (60% or more
ovals and the remainder natural terrain road courses), but I think we
essentially see things in a similar light.
>I don’t have a problem with the mandated configuration of engines in F1
>there is still a fair old difference in horsepower between the best & the
>worst (or even the best & the middle) indicating that there is room for
>innovation within the regulations.
I hate it. F-1 is supposed to be not just the pinnacle of driver
achievement, but of engineering excellence as well. Telling an
engineer that he has to have 10 cylinders in a Vee configuration, to
me, is the very antithesis of that.
Give me V-8′s, V-10′s. V-12′s (like a Ferrari should have), V-16′s,
W-8′s, W-12′s, W-16′s, flat-8′s, flat 10′s, flat 12′s, inline fours,
inline sixes, inline eights, rotaries, turbos, superchargers,
Comprexes, round pistons, oval pistons, air-cooled, water-cooled,
oil-cooled, liquid metal cooled, composites, metal matrix, metal
plastic hybrids, you name it – whatever the engineer’s mind can fathom
as the best solution to whatever set of more GENERAL rules – like F-1
used to be.
I don;t even think they should be telling them how many damn wheels to
put on the things. I, personally, liked the Tyrell six-wheelers, and
March had one in the works at one time, too – with two sets of REAR
wheels!
The budgets in F-1 are a fairly good indicator that costs have not
been reduced in F-1 – only true innovation.
Sheeeeese! Street cars have more advanced engineering than most of an
F-1 car these days!
>Have you seen the nose on the new Williams launched today?
Yep.
I like it, if for no other reason than it’s certainly different.
>If not http://f1.racing-live.com/photos/2004/team-williams/diapo_102.jpg -
>Already being referred to as "The Walrus" over in RASF1. Its either a
>complete red herring to confuse everyone else or they’ve found something
>new. We’ll see in testing but only really know the answer at Melbourne.
>Personally, I loved the "Penske Panzers" – I thought they were a great idea.
Me, too.
My God – We agreed on something else, AGAIN!
Oh, no! :-)
Alan Sandoval <alan.s@(removespam)intertrader.net> wrote:
> Billy, the guy who has to change nics every week or so, in order to baffle
> all those who killfile him on a regular basis.
i find this in my killfile is much easier (tin only):
group=rec.autos.sport.cart
case=0
score=kill
msgi…@free.teranews.com*
cheers.
> >Just about spot on.
> Well, I’ll be damned!
> Gary Shell, Iain, and I all agreeing on something in the same week!
> Will wonders of the universe never cease?
Next stop that damn Beagle Mars Rover thing of ours will wake up & come
chargin’ back over the hill I expect (!)
- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -
> >The only thing that is going to be difficult is running cars that are
> >inherently more skittish (less grip/more power) on the Ovals. That said
it
> >should space them out a bit more & so that would be better.
> They should be "skittish." The drivers should HAVE to lift for the
> corner. That’s what separates the men from the boys (or the girls, if
> applicable).
> I contend that the racing would be far SAFER if there was more power
> and less downforce and grip, as we would see who could actually drive
> and who couldn’t VERY quickly. This would do two things:
> 1.) Spread the field out a bit more on ovals and require more respect
> between drivers.
> 2.) Quickly and efficiently weed out the ones that shouldn’t be there
> and have them replaced with more deserving and higher skilled talent.
> (See Sarah Fisher and A.J. Foyt IntraVenous)
Can’t argue with that…the "natural selection" process might be a bit ugly
for a while though
> It is certainly a matter of personal preference, but I would like to
> see NO street circuits, but if you had to have two, Long Beach and
> Surfers I could live with.
> After that I prefer a slightly different split than you (60% or more
> ovals and the remainder natural terrain road courses), but I think we
> essentially see things in a similar light.
Frightening huh?
- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -
> >I don’t have a problem with the mandated configuration of engines in F1
> >there is still a fair old difference in horsepower between the best & the
> >worst (or even the best & the middle) indicating that there is room for
> >innovation within the regulations.
> I hate it. F-1 is supposed to be not just the pinnacle of driver
> achievement, but of engineering excellence as well. Telling an
> engineer that he has to have 10 cylinders in a Vee configuration, to
> me, is the very antithesis of that.
> Give me V-8′s, V-10′s. V-12′s (like a Ferrari should have), V-16′s,
> W-8′s, W-12′s, W-16′s, flat-8′s, flat 10′s, flat 12′s, inline fours,
> inline sixes, inline eights, rotaries, turbos, superchargers,
> Comprexes, round pistons, oval pistons, air-cooled, water-cooled,
> oil-cooled, liquid metal cooled, composites, metal matrix, metal
> plastic hybrids, you name it – whatever the engineer’s mind can fathom
> as the best solution to whatever set of more GENERAL rules – like F-1
> used to be.
The problem I think is cost & keeping it under control (or at least a half
hearted effort thereto!). Besides, the liklihood is that they’d all head in
roughly the same direction eventually (after many iterations & wrong turns).
That would just cost a ton of money to get there & probably produce several
seasons of quite dull racing. The 2002 Ferrari walkover did a lot more harm
than good IMO.
> I don;t even think they should be telling them how many damn wheels to
> put on the things. I, personally, liked the Tyrell six-wheelers, and
> March had one in the works at one time, too – with two sets of REAR
> wheels!
There was a March ( I had a slot-car model of it when I was a kid), there
was a 6 wheel Williams with 4 at the back – its in the Williams Museum which
is a fantastic place. All the cars including a CVT car (Villeneuve era)
which was banned before it could race (as was the 6 wheeler). The 6 wheeler
was apparently 2-3 seconds a lap faster than the 4 wheel version of the day
which in itself was pretty much the class of the field. The cars that
Rosberg & Jones raced in have to be seen to be believed – little more than
tin cans – frightening. There’s also a Ferrari in there that FW swapped for
Jean Alesi and a Metro 6R4 Group B Rally car that FW hates but that PH did a
load of work on sorting out the suspension (to stop it falling off the
road!) & so insists that it remains.
The new McLaren building is about a mile & a half from where I’m sitting –
I’m still trying to figure out how to get a tour round it (!) The new
Museum/Display there is supposed to be excellent.
> The budgets in F-1 are a fairly good indicator that costs have not
> been reduced in F-1 – only true innovation.
Give ‘em a $billion each and they’d spend it. Innovation is no longer a case
of shall we have the engine at the back or the front or shall we have a
chassis or a Monocoque…its all whizz bang materials, technology &
electronics now – frighteningly expensive. Unfortunatly I think that they
need to keep a lid on the expenditure otherwise things would get completely
out of hand & we’d be left with about 12-14 cars only…Minardi, Jordan &
Sauber just couldn’t keep up. That said that Russian Billionaire bloke (who
bought Chelsea Football Club – now rechristened "Chelski") is reported to be
sniffing around Jordan this week. A money no object kinda guy
> Sheeeeese! Street cars have more advanced engineering than most of an
> F-1 car these days!
> >Have you seen the nose on the new Williams launched today?
> Yep.
> I like it, if for no other reason than it’s certainly different.
Likewise – its a mean looking thing.
> >Personally, I loved the "Penske Panzers" – I thought they were a great
idea.
> Me, too.
> My God – We agreed on something else, AGAIN!
> Oh, no! :-)
Time to go now before someone suggests we "get a room" - Brrrrrrrr !
I.
Billy Chapel <outofopti…@outoftime.com> wrote:
>Both CART and the IRL got so lost in wanting aero downforce that they
>forgot (as Gary Shell and I have both alluded to) that people really
>come to a race to see the DRIVERS!
Thanks for the "props". But I didn’t allude to it at all. I said,
flat out, it IS what is wrong. <grin>
>I personaly believe that’s why Sarah Fisher WAS voted the most popular
>driver in the IRL. There was at least some human "drama" (for want of
>a better term) there.
Ya think? I gotta agree. I like Sara for her "spunkiness" and
tenacity, certainly not for her driving. But that’s ok too. Not
EVERY drive has to be a Juan Pablo, or a Tony Stewart. Hell, I used
to like to watch Andre "De Crash R Us" in F1.
>The rest of the IRL and CART both had about as much true human
>on-track "drama" as a board meeting of the "Boring People for Mundane
>Lives" Foundation.
There were other folks who had their moments too.
>And let me point out here, crashes, accidents, and injuries are not
>the kind of human "drama" I am referring to. NOBODY in their right
>mind wants to see anyone get hurt on a race track, period.
Can I get an AMEN?
>That said, however, the "wrestling of the vicious beast" element of
>racing should not be discounted. I firmly believe that one of the
>almost instinctive reasons people are fascinated with racing is the
>"edge of disaster" and "near death" aspect of these drivers doing
>something most people would be scared to death to do themselves.
Yep. The excrement comes from watching the human tame the savage
beast. Just watch the crowds reaction to someone who gets the tail
out a bit and gathers it back up. I don’t care what the series. This
single event unites them all.
>Open-wheel racing in North America needs to be under one umbrella. It
>only makes sense. There are NOT two F-1 series. There are certainly
>series leading up to F-1, but not a pair of F-1′s. That’s why the
>previous threat of there being two never held up. Regardless of what
>they may have said, even the manufacturers knew that would never fly,
>or it would destroy the sport in the process.
Can I get another AMEN?
>Like it or not, when it comes to big time open-wheel racing in North
>America, there is the Indy 500, and then there is everything else.
>Whatever the PREMIER open-wheel series is in NA, it needs to be firmly
>tied to the Indy 500. Saying it is "just another race" or that you can
>host a series claiming to be a PREMIER open-wheel NA series is just
>ludicrous. It cannot, and will not, work under the current climate and
>given the sports’ history and legacy in the USA.
Again, I have to agree in principle. But I must say, too, that the
race certainly HAS lost a lot of it’s luster. Witness the ticket
sales. Witness pole day. Witness Carberation day. Etc. (I also
think it is NOT too late to regain that luster. But Tony has some
SERIOUS fence mending to do.)
>Now, although I said I don’t care what cars run in it, I do have a
>preference. I think they need FAR less aerodynamic downforce and aids,
>narrower tires (and maybe even smaller diameter ones, though the
>diameter does have some safety benefits) for less grip. Just as
>important, I think they need MORE horsepower. The idea is that any
>PREMIER level race car should be DIFFICULT to master and excel in.
>CART and IRL cars are BOTH far too easy to drive near to their limit.
>(notice I said NEAR to their limit. Still only a few drivers can drive
>them AT their limits, but having so many lesser skilled drivers able
>to get NEAR that limit causes more problems than it solves).
I’ve had this same running conversation with one of your "favorite"
people, Mark C at Autoracing1.com. I’ve expanded it with him though
to also say that the side pods MUST extend outward to a line drawn
between the side wall of the front and rear tires. Also there MUST be
a structure in front of the front tires OR behind the rear tires.
These two measures would virtually eliminate launching of a car due
interlocking of tires (in the case of the side pod rule) or one driver
over-running the other (in the case of the front/rear structure rule).
>I also do not think any PREMIER series should be a SPEC series. CART
>and the IRL BOTH have erred too far towards SPEC series in the past,
>and what CART was in 2003 was idiotic. Technical diversity attracts
>the best people to the teams, as far as engineers, mechanics, etc. It
>also lends more, IMHO believe it or not, MORE of an air of "humanity"
>to a racing series. Someone waltzes in with, say, a Penske "Panzer"
>motor and whips everybody, then you either cheer them or hate them.
>Someone strolls in with a Greenfield V-8 trying to do the same thing
>and it is a dismal failure people either admire them or wonder what
>they were thinking, but either way, it garners a human emotion and
>response.
While I do not necessarily want a "spec" series, I am not really sure
the average fan will REALLY know the difference. And we DO have to
be concerned MORE with the average fan than us fanatics.
>Jim Hall was never able to defeat the "Bruce and Denny Show" but it
>was sure fun watching him try to so it technically. And again, it is
>not the technology itself that fascinates the fans, but the people
>involved with the technology. Just witness the intial reactions when
>Renault first ran turbos in F-1, or when some teams tried to hold out
>with NA engines against the continued onslaught or the turbos. That
>was human "drama."
On the other hand though, we don’t want to see someone with incredibly
deep pockets to come in and just walk all over everyone. Otherwise we
might find ourselves with another Porsche 917 and Can-Am again.
>That is all but gone now in F-1, too. who would have ever thought that
>F-1 would MANDATE the engine confirguration of the cars?
>Ludicrous. Simply ludicrous.
>Now it does seem to work for NASCAR, so I am probably all wrong there,
>but you asked.
I think this makes my point that the average fan does not know a spec
from non spec series. (Or care.) To paraphrase a political
statement, "It’s the drivers, stupid."
- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -
>And because I am probably all wrong is also why I said the car
>configuration doesn’t really matter to the success of the series.
>I do think that North America’s PREMIER open-wheel series should be
>run on both road circuits and ovals. It is strictly a personal
>opinion, but I think street circuits do more to "dumb down" racing
>than anything else. It can certainly be argued that you can have BIG
>crowds at a street circuit event, but did you really cultivate any
>long-term race fans, or just fans of that street "party" event? That’s
>the problem I see with street circuit events. A large portion of the
>people are there at them to be "there" and be "seen" at them, not
>because they care one whit about the racing, nor will they ever. They
>go for the "society" aspect of it, and nothing else. Sure, some (a
>very small percentage, IMHO) may become real racing fans, but not
>enough to justify the long term damage I think it does to the sport.
I think a mix of oval, road and PROPER street courses is the way to
go. (Notice I said PROPER.) Re: the "society" aspect and the "seen"
crowd. I am afraid that has been a part of racing LONG before the
advent of the current street races. Look at Indy. It’s a perfect
example. Were you ever in the infield during the 500′s heyday? It
was a drunken orgy, pure and simple. I’d venture a guess that
something more than 50% of the Indy crowd at a 1960′s, 1970′s or
1980′s event had no CLUE as to what was really going on. Most folks
were there because it was the freakin’ Indy 500, not because it was a
race.
>Racing actually not only survived, but flourished, prior to the
>proliferation of street events, and if you look, you can see a
>downward trend in almost any series as it became more and more
>dependent on street circuit antics (IMSA, for one, and CART for
>another). You have never seen NASCAR see the need for a street circuit
>event, and as you well know not many have survived in F-1. Most have
>been short-term disasters, and Bernie was smart enough not to keep
>going back to that well.
Twas the DEPENDENCY that bit them in the ass, not the street race
itself.
>Whatever sanctioning body has this PREMIER NA open-wheel series has to
>start to learn to promote the DRIVERS, and not themselves. You need
>look no further than NASCAR in this country to see the fruits of that
>thinking. Over here, people may cheer for the Yankees (or hate ‘em),
>but they go to see the players, not the bats and the gloves.
Bad analogy, the bats and gloves don’t hide the player the way the
body work does, but I understand your point and agree. Open wheel is
in a good position to deal with this, I think. I watched the "Victory
by Design" show on Speed Channel the other night, the Masserati
episode. (Best damn show EVER!!!!!!!!!!!!) It was a gas to watch
Alan Decadonet (spelling?) whip those cars around. It was great to be
able to see his arms and hands working the wheel, sawing it back and
forth in the ultimate form of traction control – THE HUMAN BEING! I
kept wondering, would it be possible to build a SAFE car that allows
us to see more of that action today? (ALMS does to some degree,
GrandAm on the other hand has it ALL wrong with their closed top
"prototypes".)
- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -
>Television needs to made a partner in all of this, much like NASCAR
>has tried to do. They CANNOT be simply someone you buy airtime from.
>They have to have a vested interest in promoting and furthering the
>series and its personalities. They have to have a financial interest
>in seeing the series be a success, and actively get involved with the
>series in cultivating sponsorship and funding, and be willing to share
>in the proceeds of the co-marketing of the sport, much like it is in
>the NFL.
>There is more, but this has run on long enough to continue the
>discussion, so I will
…
read more »
Billy Chapel <outofopti…@outoftime.com> wrote:
>Well, I’ll be damned!
>Gary Shell, Iain, and I all agreeing on something in the same week!
>Will wonders of the universe never cease?
Its is because we have all dropped the rhetoric and actually talked
about racing for a change. I like it! This is a GOOD thing.
>It is certainly a matter of personal preference, but I would like to
>see NO street circuits, but if you had to have two, Long Beach and
>Surfers I could live with.
I gotta ask, what is the real difference between a road course and a
PROPER street race? I propose there is really none, except for the
ability to draw a larger crowd.
>After that I prefer a slightly different split than you (60% or more
>ovals and the remainder natural terrain road courses), but I think we
>essentially see things in a similar light.
For me I’d like to see it 60% road 10% street and 40% ovals. But I
can live with your percentages as well.
>I hate it. F-1 is supposed to be not just the pinnacle of driver
>achievement, but of engineering excellence as well. Telling an
>engineer that he has to have 10 cylinders in a Vee configuration, to
>me, is the very antithesis of that.
>Give me V-8′s, V-10′s. V-12′s (like a Ferrari should have), V-16′s,
>W-8′s, W-12′s, W-16′s, flat-8′s, flat 10′s, flat 12′s, inline fours,
>inline sixes, inline eights, rotaries, turbos, superchargers,
>Comprexes, round pistons, oval pistons, air-cooled, water-cooled,
>oil-cooled, liquid metal cooled, composites, metal matrix, metal
>plastic hybrids, you name it – whatever the engineer’s mind can fathom
>as the best solution to whatever set of more GENERAL rules – like F-1
>used to be.
I agree here, in principle, but something MUST be done to contain the
costs. I think the one engine per weekend rule might be the way. But
the jury is still out on that one. We really have to tip toe around
this one. Runaway tech can lead to runaway costs, which leads to
teams running away and/or a huge disparity between the haves and have
nots.
>I don;t even think they should be telling them how many damn wheels to
>put on the things. I, personally, liked the Tyrell six-wheelers, and
>March had one in the works at one time, too – with two sets of REAR
>wheels!
Or the F1 cars with two HIGH wings, one in the front and one in the
rear. Or the infamous "sucker" car. (I got to see this one in action
at Mid Ohio many moons ago.) I have a small photo collection of these
racing oddities. Long live Jim Hall and Smokey Yunnick (spelling?).
>The budgets in F-1 are a fairly good indicator that costs have not
>been reduced in F-1 – only true innovation.
I’m not sure how to keep the costs down enough to allow the likes of a
modern day Jim Hall to appear. It is a conundrum.
>My God – We agreed on something else, AGAIN!
>Oh, no! :-)
This is getting to be FUN! Imagine!
Gary
"Ron Ginter" <rongin…@rogers.com> wrote in message
news:veubvvg9nrh6tcrhpp45cpcohcp2i27v4u@4ax.com…
> I just checked this newsgroup for messages. Found 34 new ones. One was
by
> CFster (why do you bother responding to the Loony One?) and one was spam
> about some nude picture. The other 32 messages were from (you guessed
it),
> the current incarnation of Mac.
> I really hate it when he goes off his meds. The postings are not only
> numerous, but have an air of frantic desperation about them. It makes one
> wonder why he has such an overwhelming need to convince everyone that
CART,
> and everything to do with it, are bad, doomed, and/or finished?
"Convince," for crying out loud, he’s rubbing your noses in it.
Kaput, finished, dead. RIP.
"Ron Ginter" <rongin…@rogers.com> wrote in message
news:veubvvg9nrh6tcrhpp45cpcohcp2i27v4u@4ax.com…
- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -
> I just checked this newsgroup for messages. Found 34 new ones. One was
by
> CFster (why do you bother responding to the Loony One?) and one was spam
> about some nude picture. The other 32 messages were from (you guessed
it),
> the current incarnation of Mac.
> I really hate it when he goes off his meds. The postings are not only
> numerous, but have an air of frantic desperation about them. It makes one
> wonder why he has such an overwhelming need to convince everyone that
CART,
> and everything to do with it, are bad, doomed, and/or finished? The poor
> guy is going to wind up in a padded room if he doesn’t get a grip! Talk
> about your classic obsessive/compulsive behaviour. A shrink could write
> several papers on this poor guy. He even responds to himself using
> different aliases.
> And what will he do if his wish comes true, and CART disappears forever?
I
> shudder to think what the next obsession will be.
> Please, Billy/Schnorky/Mac, renew those prescriptions and get some rest.
> Don’t you ever get tired of obsessing over the same thing every day? Even
> if it’s just for a few days, a temporary respite from your postings would
> be a welcome break for the rest of us as well. Don’t you realize that
most
> of us don’t even read your messages?
> Repeat after me: It doesn’t matter. It doesn’t matter. It doesn’t
> matter…
> …Ron
It’s a lost cause bud. He’s too far gone in his psychosis to even comprehend
what you’re talking about. He’s way to caught up in his narrow little
vision – he doesn’t see what’s going on around him. Purely a creature of
habit by this point I would imagine.
Just like anyone with an obsesive compulsive or addictive personality – they
can come up with any kind of twisted logic they need to justify their own
ends.
CFster
On Fri, 02 Jan 2004 23:21:22 GMT, Ron Ginter <rongin…@rogers.com>
wrote:
>I just checked this newsgroup for messages. Found 34 new ones. One was by
>CFster (why do you bother responding to the Loony One?) and one was spam
>about some nude picture. The other 32 messages were from (you guessed it),
>the current incarnation of Mac.
Wow! You can count!
You must not have been a CART shareholder, or on the CART board or
staff!
>I really hate it when he goes off his meds.
Another silly and lame attempt at a slam from one is is obviously one
of the CHUMPS.
>The postings are not only numerous
You betcha’.
>but have an air of frantic desperation about them.
Back to some of that CHUMPS’ dreaming, again.
>It makes one wonder why he has such an overwhelming need to
>convince everyone that CART, and everything to do with it, are bad,
>doomed, and/or finished?
To help you fianlly see reality and admit it.
Don’t worry, I won’t charge you for the treatment and assistance in
your time of grief.
>The poor guy is going to wind up in a padded room if he doesn’t get
>a grip!
Well, I did stay in a Holiday Inn Express once, but only for a minute.
>Talk about your classic obsessive/compulsive behaviour.
Okay, let’s talk about your classic obsessive/complusive behavior.
>A shrink could write several papers on this poor guy.
Imagine the volumes he could write about the denial and disconnection
from reality he could write about you CHUMPS.
>He even responds to himself using different aliases.
Nope. Never done that. Once again we catch one of the CHUMPS out as a
liar and spreading falsehood.
So, maybe you could have worked for CART, but only in the PR
department.
>And what will he do if his wish comes true, and CART disappears forever?
Ah, but it was NEVER my wish for the true CART to disappear. I loved
it. It was a great and wonderful series.
I only want this sick and useless parody of the once great CART series
to disappear. It’s an embarassment to anyone who calls themselves a
race fan.
Not to even mention it seems to only have attracted crooks and con-men
the past tow or three years.
>I shudder to think what the next obsession will be.
Keep shuddering. It looks good on you.
>Please, Billy/Schnorky/Mac,
I am indeed Billy, and am indeed Mac, but I have NEVER, ever been
Schnorky. Not even once.
>renew those prescriptions and get some rest.
What’s wrong with "recreational" drugs?
>Don’t you ever get tired of obsessing over the same thing every day?
Not as long as it drives self-important, arrogant, self-righteous,
egotistical, net nanny wind-bags like you over the edge.
>Even if it’s just for a few days
I was gone a few days just a short time ago. You didn’t notice. I was
on a WONDERFUL trip with a terrific woman and several friends. We had
a GREAT time.
You should have been there.
>a temporary respite from your postings would be a welcome break
>for the rest of us as well.
Why on earth would I want to give you and your whimpering co-whiners a
break?
>Don’t you realize that most of us don’t even read your messages?
Well, you do, and that’s all that really counts.
BWAAAAAAAAAAAA-HAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA-HAAAAAAAAAAAAA!
>Repeat after me: It doesn’t matter. It doesn’t matter. It doesn’t
>matter…
Racing does matter to me.
Of course, even Paul Tracy says that CART racing doesn’t matter to
CHUMPS. According to him CART fans can go to an entire race weekend
and never even bother to take a look at the cars on the track.
On Fri, 2 Jan 2004 21:37:30 -0500, "CFster" <cfs…@deletemecox.net>
wrote:
- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -
>"Ron Ginter" <rongin…@rogers.com> wrote in message
>news:veubvvg9nrh6tcrhpp45cpcohcp2i27v4u@4ax.com…
>> I just checked this newsgroup for messages. Found 34 new ones. One was
>by
>> CFster (why do you bother responding to the Loony One?) and one was spam
>> about some nude picture. The other 32 messages were from (you guessed
>it),
>> the current incarnation of Mac.
>> I really hate it when he goes off his meds. The postings are not only
>> numerous, but have an air of frantic desperation about them. It makes one
>> wonder why he has such an overwhelming need to convince everyone that
>CART,
>> and everything to do with it, are bad, doomed, and/or finished? The poor
>> guy is going to wind up in a padded room if he doesn’t get a grip! Talk
>> about your classic obsessive/compulsive behaviour. A shrink could write
>> several papers on this poor guy. He even responds to himself using
>> different aliases.
>> And what will he do if his wish comes true, and CART disappears forever?
>I
>> shudder to think what the next obsession will be.
>> Please, Billy/Schnorky/Mac, renew those prescriptions and get some rest.
>> Don’t you ever get tired of obsessing over the same thing every day? Even
>> if it’s just for a few days, a temporary respite from your postings would
>> be a welcome break for the rest of us as well. Don’t you realize that
>most
>> of us don’t even read your messages?
>> Repeat after me: It doesn’t matter. It doesn’t matter. It doesn’t
>> matter…
>> …Ron
>It’s a lost cause bud.
If you are talking about your beloved parody of CART that is calling
itself CART, then you are right – It’s a lost cause.
It was lost the minute the IPO was floated. It continued death spiral
when it forgot that it was built around the Indy 500. It accelerated
downward when it tried to convince everybody and even itself that it
could survive and even triumph without the Indy 500. It turned
straight nose-down and applied full-throttle, even as its own wings
were shearing off in loud agonizing wails of torment, when it hired
Chris Pook and let him run amuck with the checkbook. It even deluded
itself and those loyal followers it still had right up until it hit
the courthouse steps at teh supersonic velocity of squandered hopes
and hundreds of millions of dollars, crying all the while that the
"Three Amigos" would either save it or resurrect from the deep, dark
grave it dug for itself by its headlong rush into the ground – but all
that truly remains is a great smoking hole of lies, deceit, and
disillusionment.
Yep – CART’s lost alright. Forever.
>He’s too far gone in his psychosis to even comprehend
>what you’re talking about.
There you go trying to project your own ills and fears onto others.
Shame on you.
Just because you are all mixed up and disheartened over this whole
CART boondoggle doesn’t mean the rest of us are.
>He’s way to caught up in his narrow little vision
A vison? Weren’t Paul Gentilozzi and Kevin Kalkhoven recently talking
in an interview about a "vision"?
>he doesn’t see what’s going on around him.
Me? Not see what is going on around me? You have got to be kidding,
right?
I have seen CART’s self-destruction for months and months and months!
It is you guys, the CHUMPS, who have had such a terrible time seeing
what is going on around you!
My God, boy – You guys still think CART isn’t DEAD!
Newsflash! CART is bankrupt, and despite the fact they declared
Chapter 11, they have no plan nor intention to "reorganize" and once
again sanction ANY racing series – hence, CART is DEAD!
And what’s worse, you moronic lemmings still think that the "Three
Amigos" are going to somehow resurrect it.
Now THAT is NOT seeing what is going on around you.
>Purely a creature of habit by this point I would imagine.
Well, I do smoke.
But I don’t blame it on tobacco sponsorship in racing, or on TG and
the IRL.
Nope, it’s my own fault.
Or CART’s. I’m not sure which. ;-)
BWAAAAAAAAAAAAAA-HAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA-HAAAAAAAAA!
>Just like anyone with an obsesive compulsive or addictive personality
You seem to keep obsessively and compulsively talking about obsessive
(with three "s"s, BTW), compulsive, and addictive disorders – does
this mean it is a problem within your family, or are you just fixated
on it so much you can’t stop projecting your behavior unto others?
>they can come up with any kind of twisted logic they need to justify their own
>ends.
And, of course, you are speaking from your vast amount of experience
with it, right?
"Billy Chapel"
Know what Billy? You are REALLY CREEPY. Do you keep lizards or snakes as
pets?
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On Sat, 03 Jan 2004 05:21:10 GMT, Billy Chapel <outofopti…@outoftime.com>
wrote:
>You must not have been a CART shareholder, or on the CART board or
>staff!
Nah, just a fan.
>Another silly and lame attempt at a slam from one is is obviously one
>of the CHUMPS.
By your definition, yes I am. If CART does disappear from the racing
scene, it won’t be the end of my world, but it *will* be a disappointment.
In much the same way, I am currently disappointed to see World Superbike
declining after several years of being great racing.
>>but have an air of frantic desperation about them.
>Back to some of that CHUMPS’ dreaming, again.
Avoiding the topic is classic obsessive/compulsive behaviour.
>>It makes one wonder why he has such an overwhelming need to
>>convince everyone that CART, and everything to do with it, are bad,
>>doomed, and/or finished?
>To help you fianlly see reality and admit it.
>Don’t worry, I won’t charge you for the treatment and assistance in
>your time of grief.
So you have appointed yourself the guardian of *my* mental health? Oh,
that’s rich! <g> Reversal is another common technique of an
obsessive/compulsive personality.
>Well, I did stay in a Holiday Inn Express once, but only for a minute.
It shows.
>Okay, let’s talk about your classic obsessive/complusive behavior.
More reversal tactics… see above.
>Imagine the volumes he could write about the denial and disconnection
>from reality he could write about you CHUMPS.
And even more reversal.
>Nope. Never done that. Once again we catch one of the CHUMPS out as a
>liar and spreading falsehood.
And here we have common denial of the obvious.
>So, maybe you could have worked for CART, but only in the PR
>department.
Hmmm. This seems like a compliment, but that would be totally out of
character.
>Ah, but it was NEVER my wish for the true CART to disappear. I loved
>it. It was a great and wonderful series.
>I only want this sick and useless parody of the once great CART series
>to disappear. It’s an embarassment to anyone who calls themselves a
>race fan.
Self-contradiction. Creation of unrealistic distinctions to support an
irrational viewpoint.
>Keep shuddering. It looks good on you.
Personal attacks to support a weak position.
>I am indeed Billy, and am indeed Mac, but I have NEVER, ever been
>Schnorky. Not even once.
Right… so Schnorky has been suppressed at this moment? I’m sure he’ll be
back.
>What’s wrong with "recreational" drugs?
Nothing at all. It’s the personality disorders and psychosis that are
troubling.
>Not as long as it drives self-important, arrogant, self-righteous,
>egotistical, net nanny wind-bags like you over the edge.
More personal attacks. You poor guy, you just don’t have any other arrows
in your quiver, do you?
>I was gone a few days just a short time ago. You didn’t notice. I was
>on a WONDERFUL trip with a terrific woman and several friends. We had
>a GREAT time.
Ah, here’s the one I was waiting for. Most psychotics will reach a point
of insecurity at which they feel it necessary to establish a certain
"normalcy" to others.
>You should have been there.
I don’t think so.
>Why on earth would I want to give you and your whimpering co-whiners a
>break?
More personal attacks. And hostility. You must be experiencing that
"backed into a corner" feeling.
>>Don’t you realize that most of us don’t even read your messages?
>Well, you do, and that’s all that really counts.
>BWAAAAAAAAAAAA-HAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA-HAAAAAAAAAAAAA!
That’s better. Ineffective bravado. Very similar to the way a great ape
will rise to full height, beat his chest, roar loudly… then run away. Of
course, the ape runs away because it is mentally healthy; you’re not likely
to do that, are you?
>Racing does matter to me.
Your actions indicate otherwise… repeatedly.
>Of course, even Paul Tracy says that CART racing doesn’t matter to
>CHUMPS. According to him CART fans can go to an entire race weekend
>and never even bother to take a look at the cars on the track.
The last refuge of the incompetent: take a single statement from an
authoritative source, and twist the meaning in a feeble attempt to use it
to support a viewpoint that can’t be supported by normal means.
Like I said, Mac, please go back on your meds. Get normalized, and maybe
you can start to see the world in a positive light again, and then you can
join the rest of us in enjoying the racing world.
…Ron
On Fri, 02 Jan 2004 23:21:22 GMT, Ron Ginter <rongin…@rogers.com> wrote:
> I just checked this newsgroup for messages. Found 34 new ones. One was by
> CFster (why do you bother responding to the Loony One?) and one was spam
> about some nude picture. The other 32 messages were from (you guessed it),
> the current incarnation of Mac.
> I really hate it when he goes off his meds. The postings are not only
> numerous, but have an air of frantic desperation about them. It makes one
> wonder why he has such an overwhelming need to convince everyone that CART,
> and everything to do with it, are bad, doomed, and/or finished? The poor
> guy is going to wind up in a padded room if he doesn’t get a grip! Talk
> about your classic obsessive/compulsive behaviour. A shrink could write
> several papers on this poor guy. He even responds to himself using
> different aliases.
Noticed the same thing but it made it very easy to mark the whole group
as read. I get a great deal of satisfaction by not reading his posts.
He deperately needs attention.
Bob
"Ron Ginter" <rongin…@rogers.com> wrote in message
news:veubvvg9nrh6tcrhpp45cpcohcp2i27v4u@4ax.com…
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> I just checked this newsgroup for messages. Found 34 new ones. One was
by
> CFster (why do you bother responding to the Loony One?) and one was spam
> about some nude picture. The other 32 messages were from (you guessed
it),
> the current incarnation of Mac.
> I really hate it when he goes off his meds. The postings are not only
> numerous, but have an air of frantic desperation about them. It makes one
> wonder why he has such an overwhelming need to convince everyone that
CART,
> and everything to do with it, are bad, doomed, and/or finished? The poor
> guy is going to wind up in a padded room if he doesn’t get a grip! Talk
> about your classic obsessive/compulsive behaviour. A shrink could write
> several papers on this poor guy. He even responds to himself using
> different aliases.
> And what will he do if his wish comes true, and CART disappears forever?
I
> shudder to think what the next obsession will be.
> Please, Billy/Schnorky/Mac, renew those prescriptions and get some rest.
> Don’t you ever get tired of obsessing over the same thing every day? Even
> if it’s just for a few days, a temporary respite from your postings would
> be a welcome break for the rest of us as well. Don’t you realize that
most
> of us don’t even read your messages?
> Repeat after me: It doesn’t matter. It doesn’t matter. It doesn’t
> matter…
> …Ron
It must matter, just read your post!
Ok Uncle cFester!!
"CFster" <cfs…@deletemecox.net> wrote in message
news:JVpJb.33823$F22.9624@lakeread02…
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> "Ron Ginter" <rongin…@rogers.com> wrote in message
> news:veubvvg9nrh6tcrhpp45cpcohcp2i27v4u@4ax.com…
> > I just checked this newsgroup for messages. Found 34 new ones. One was
> by
> > CFster (why do you bother responding to the Loony One?) and one was spam
> > about some nude picture. The other 32 messages were from (you guessed
> it),
> > the current incarnation of Mac.
> > I really hate it when he goes off his meds. The postings are not only
> > numerous, but have an air of frantic desperation about them. It makes
one
> > wonder why he has such an overwhelming need to convince everyone that
> CART,
> > and everything to do with it, are bad, doomed, and/or finished? The
poor
> > guy is going to wind up in a padded room if he doesn’t get a grip! Talk
> > about your classic obsessive/compulsive behaviour. A shrink could write
> > several papers on this poor guy. He even responds to himself using
> > different aliases.
> > And what will he do if his wish comes true, and CART disappears forever?
> I
> > shudder to think what the next obsession will be.
> > Please, Billy/Schnorky/Mac, renew those prescriptions and get some rest.
> > Don’t you ever get tired of obsessing over the same thing every day?
Even
> > if it’s just for a few days, a temporary respite from your postings
would
> > be a welcome break for the rest of us as well. Don’t you realize that
> most
> > of us don’t even read your messages?
> > Repeat after me: It doesn’t matter. It doesn’t matter. It doesn’t
> > matter…
> > …Ron
> It’s a lost cause bud. He’s too far gone in his psychosis to even
comprehend
> what you’re talking about. He’s way to caught up in his narrow little
> vision – he doesn’t see what’s going on around him. Purely a creature of
> habit by this point I would imagine.
> Just like anyone with an obsesive compulsive or addictive personality –
they
> can come up with any kind of twisted logic they need to justify their own
> ends.
> CFster
On Sat, 03 Jan 2004 15:32:56 GMT, Ron Ginter <rongin…@rogers.com>
wrote:
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>On Sat, 03 Jan 2004 05:21:10 GMT, Billy Chapel <outofopti…@outoftime.com>
>wrote:
>>You must not have been a CART shareholder, or on the CART board or
>>staff!
>Nah, just a fan.
>>Another silly and lame attempt at a slam from one is is obviously one
>>of the CHUMPS.
>By your definition, yes I am. If CART does disappear from the racing
>scene, it won’t be the end of my world, but it *will* be a disappointment.
>In much the same way, I am currently disappointed to see World Superbike
>declining after several years of being great racing.
>>>but have an air of frantic desperation about them.
>>Back to some of that CHUMPS’ dreaming, again.
>Avoiding the topic is classic obsessive/compulsive behaviour.
Whatever you say, Dr. Ginter.
>>>It makes one wonder why he has such an overwhelming need to
>>>convince everyone that CART, and everything to do with it, are bad,
>>>doomed, and/or finished?
>>To help you fianlly see reality and admit it.
>>Don’t worry, I won’t charge you for the treatment and assistance in
>>your time of grief.
>So you have appointed yourself the guardian of *my* mental health? Oh,
>that’s rich! <g> Reversal is another common technique of an
>obsessive/compulsive personality.
And your professional background in this area would be what, Mr.
Expert?
>>Well, I did stay in a Holiday Inn Express once, but only for a minute.
>It shows.
The place was a roach pit. I wouldn’t have let my worst enemy stay
there. I even felt sorry for the roaches.
>>Okay, let’s talk about your classic obsessive/complusive behavior.
>More reversal tactics… see above.
Yes, sir, Dr. Ginter, sir.
>>Imagine the volumes he could write about the denial and disconnection
>>from reality he could write about you CHUMPS.
>And even more reversal.
That’s what I keep telling CFster.
>>Nope. Never done that. Once again we catch one of the CHUMPS out as a
>>liar and spreading falsehood.
>And here we have common denial of the obvious.
But I haven’t, so you are a liar and I am in denial of nothing.
>>So, maybe you could have worked for CART, but only in the PR
>>department.
>Hmmm. This seems like a compliment, but that would be totally out of
>character.
You shouldn’t take it as a compliment. Just take a look at CART’s PR
if you want a clue.
Their public relations was sooooooooooo bad they almost couldn’t BUY
engines last year!
Oh, and their promotion is TERRIBLE! Don’t believe me, then explain
why they are in bankrultcy.
>>Ah, but it was NEVER my wish for the true CART to disappear. I loved
>>it. It was a great and wonderful series.
>>I only want this sick and useless parody of the once great CART series
>>to disappear. It’s an embarassment to anyone who calls themselves a
>>race fan.
>Self-contradiction. Creation of unrealistic distinctions to support an
>irrational viewpoint.
How so?
Are you going to tell me that the CART series that ran in 2003 is the
same to you as the CART series that ran in 1995?
>>Keep shuddering. It looks good on you.
>Personal attacks to support a weak position.
Why is that a personal attack, Dr. Ron?
YOU are the one who said they shuddered. I only agreed with you and
said it looked good on you.
A tad bit too defensive there, aren’t you, Dr. Ron?
My position is FAR from weak, and you know it. People who defend
CART’s actions in the past year, and condone it, are the ones in a
weak and indefensible position.
>>I am indeed Billy, and am indeed Mac, but I have NEVER, ever been
>>Schnorky. Not even once.
>Right… so Schnorky has been suppressed at this moment? I’m sure he’ll be
>back.
No. Schnorky is someone else, Dr. Ron. You know, another person in
another city, etc.
Any idiot can see that.
>>What’s wrong with "recreational" drugs?
>Nothing at all. It’s the personality disorders and psychosis that are
>troubling.
So tell us more about them, Dr. Ron – Please.
Get up there on your higher than high pulpit and tell us how someone
who disagrees with you and folks like CFster is not as wonderful as
you are.
>>Not as long as it drives self-important, arrogant, self-righteous,
>>egotistical, net nanny wind-bags like you over the edge.
>More personal attacks. You poor guy, you just don’t have any other arrows
>in your quiver, do you?
It more appears you are the one who is retreating, Dr. Ron.
You keep attacking me instead of discussing the real subjects at hand,
like CART’s demise or OWRS’ attempt to rob the CART shareholders.
No, instead of discussing CART, on a CART newsgroup, you originate a
thread about poster on that group making false allegations and
producing outright lies – and you actually have the gall to accuse me
of personal attacks.
Dr. Ron, heal thyself.
>>I was gone a few days just a short time ago. You didn’t notice. I was
>>on a WONDERFUL trip with a terrific woman and several friends. We had
>>a GREAT time.
>Ah, here’s the one I was waiting for. Most psychotics will reach a point
>of insecurity at which they feel it necessary to establish a certain
>"normalcy" to others.
Like you know better what I did than I do, Dr. Ron.
You are really quite the arrogant and condescending little twit,
aren’t you?
You don’t post diddly-squat about CART, but you start a thread
inventing your own reality, and then suggest someone else has to
establish "normalcy" – Wow, Dr. Ron, better take another look in that
mirror.
>>You should have been there.
>I don’t think so.
You might have had a good time instead of sitting at home pretending
to be a psychologist.
>>Why on earth would I want to give you and your whimpering co-whiners a
>>break?
>More personal attacks. And hostility. You must be experiencing that
>"backed into a corner" feeling.
Not at all. You are confusing me with you CHUMPS.
It is more than apparent you fells are the ones showing that "backed
into a corner" feeling.
Just take a look at your own subject line in this thread. You couldn’t
think of a single thing to refute or dispute any of the things I have
posted about CART, so you resorted to an obviously hostile personal
attack.
>>>Don’t you realize that most of us don’t even read your messages?
>>Well, you do, and that’s all that really counts.
>>BWAAAAAAAAAAAA-HAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA-HAAAAAAAAAAAAA!
>That’s better. Ineffective bravado.
No bravado, and obviously not ineffective.
You most obviously DO read my messages.
>Very similar to the way a great ape will rise to full height, beat his chest,
>roar loudly…
And now you are an expert on great apes, too, eh Dr. Ron?
>then run away.
And if you are suggesting that it is I that have "run away," exactly
where have I run away to, Dr. Ron?
It appears it is Mr. CFster that has decided to "run away," doesn’t
it, Dr. Ron?
And after all of that rising to his full height, beating of his chest,
and roaring so loudly, too.
>Of course, the ape runs away because it is mentally healthy
Oh, so now "run(ning) away" is what’s healthy, right?
Why would anyone "run away" form the likes of you, Dr. Ron?
>you’re not likely to do that, are you?
Why would I want to?
Do you think your rather lame and falsehood-laced personal attacks on
me would make me "run away"?
>>Racing does matter to me.
>Your actions indicate otherwise… repeatedly.
And you are the expert on this how, exactly?
>>Of course, even Paul Tracy says that CART racing doesn’t matter to
>>CHUMPS. According to him CART fans can go to an entire race weekend
>>and never even bother to take a look at the cars on the track.
>The last refuge of the incompetent:
Glad you said that – Take a look at your own post here.
>take a single statement from an authoritative source
One would have to be delusional to call Paul Tracy "an authoritative
source.
>and twist the meaning
I did not twist it at all. Take a look at his quote.
>in a feeble attempt
It was far from feeble. Look at the reaction it got from you.
>to use it to support a viewpoint that can’t be supported by
>normal means.
"Normal means"? Why don’t you tell us what "normal means" is, there
Dr. Ron.
After all, EVERYONE on usenet should only post according to YOUR
guidelines, right?
>Like I said, Mac, please go back on your meds.
I’m not on any "meds," Dr. Ron. Never have been.
So once again, you are shown to be lacking veracity, and are simply
resorting to manufacturing your own reality in order to post a
personal attack.
>Get normalized, and maybe you can start to see the world in a
>positive light again
I do see the world in a positive light, Dr. Ron, but also a bright and
honest one.
I cannot help it that folks like you want to shade it to somehow paint
CART, or its future, in a rosy and hopeful light. The mere fact that
you do keep wanting CART to somehow recover when CART itself will
never recover shows you need far more help than I do.
>and then you can join the rest of us in enjoying the racing world.
I enjoy racing immensely, despite your deplorable implications.
Regardless of whether you think so or not, one does not have to enjoy
a spec-series filled with no-name drivers circulating on senseless
street circuits pretending to be something it is not in oreder to
enjoy racing.